You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
“So, let’s not “offend” the Muslims.. don’t say ANYTHING “bad” about ANY of them.. then they’ll see how “nice” we are and will be nice to us! That’s the liberal “answer”.. it’s incredibly ignorant of reality and history.” – kathy
Some muslims are terrorits, while most muslims are actually kind, peaceful people.
these muslims serve in our military, in our congress, in every aspect of our american lives.
But i dont like islam, as I think it’s not really from god. But i dont think any religion is. and if you’re going to climb up on your high horse, perhaps you should reread these exchanges and see how you’ve waffled, dodged and really just made no sense at times.
If your brand of christianity is right and if the ultra-whatever type of conservative you are, I now know thatt I really dont want to be associated with in any form….
but agaidn, we’ve strayed from the topic.
care to comment on those passages in John, or are you satisfied typing “liberal” “liar” “muslim” and “ignorance” over and over?
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Ruth, cont..
“A thing that I think you are quite guilty of is this: if you can put a label on a group you can dehumanize them. You can forget completely that there are real people with real lives behind these avatars. You can write them off as liberal, or evil, or atheist and you’ve got them sized right up. You’ve got all of life figured out. ”
Again, I would ask that you use my own words to back up this accusation. Then everyone can see, even if they won’t admit it, that your judgments are based on your own prideful biased beliefs.. not on any of my words.
I’m here Ruth, reading all the “sad” stories.. I fully understand that you all are more than a “label”.. but sorry, you all FIT the “label”.. so, therefore it’s what we call TRUTH.
And again, liberals don’t like truth. So you attack those who bring it to you. As I stated, EVERYONE here has proven me correct.. that your atheist beliefs are accompanied by your LIBERAL beliefs.. rarely do the two not go together.. this is an overall TRUTH.. sure, there might be a few exceptions, but of the majority, it’s TRUE.
I can’t help it if liberals/ atheists have such a hard time dealing with truth. All I can do is try to point out to you where you are going wrong in the hopes that you’ll reconsider your views.. that’s all I can do.
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“So, let’s not “offend” the Muslims.. don’t say ANYTHING “bad” about ANY of them.. then they’ll see how “nice” we are and will be nice to us! That’s the liberal “answer”.. it’s incredibly ignorant of reality and history.” – kathy
Some muslims are terrorits, while most muslims are actually kind, peaceful people.
these muslims serve in our military, in our congress, in every aspect of our american lives. ”
PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE I’VE STATED OTHERWISE WILLIAM…
I’ve NEVER made any claims against “all” Muslims.. here or in my article..
I can’t believe this incredible IGNORANCE!
I’m convinced that this ignorance MUST exist.. because otherwise, we would live in a perfect world and that would be Heaven.. and again, the time will come but it’s not now. So, you all are necessary.. but.. how does it feel to be the “evil” that balances out the “good”??
I’m not calling you all evil.. it’s an analogy.. but at the same time, you all ARE supporting evil.. no matter how much you try to deny it.
Oh, and I’d better clarify again.. that wasn’t a claim that all Muslims are “evil” either… sigh..
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@Kathy,
I had avoided this but since you want to throw the labels around with gratuity, here it is: you’re a right-wing conservative fundamentalist nut who think she should be able to use the Bible to tell people who they should marry, how they should live, and make all the rules because she thinks her God is the real one.
I absolutely think that gay marriage should be legal. I think women who pay insurance premiums should have their birth control covered, regardless of who they work for. And while I don’t care for abortion, I think people should have a choice about that, too. I absolutely think this should be a secular nation because people should have freedom of religion or lack thereof. I do not think that teachers or school boards should establish prayer in schools, but that children can pray anytime they get good and darned ready.
You attack those who believe anything any differently. I don’t think I need to dig back through this entire series of posts to find the bat-shit crazy things you’ve said about people being liberal.
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“I can’t believe this incredible IGNORANCE!” – kathy
WHOA! WHOA! WHOA! Kathy! WHere did I say that you said “ALL MULSIMS?”
SUCH IGNORANCE! And from you, a conservative! Please show me where I said that you said “all muslims.”
DO IT! DO IT! YOU LIBERAL! YOU”RE A LIBERAL IN SHEEP”S CLOTHING< I WILL HAVE TO NOTIFY THE LOCAL TEA PARTY ABOUT THIS!
REVERSE^4 IGNORANCE!!
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@ Kathy,
For the record I’m against extremism in any form; liberal, conservative, or otherwise.
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Arch, you said:
“That’s it – that’s all you get – you know all of the crap you wrote, but I just ate, and I’m getting sick just reading your bile. You’re not worth wasting perfectly good mushroom soup.”
You just quoted my words… YOU JUST QUOTED MY WORDS.. Arch! You gave ZERO explanation to defend your accusation! I already know MY OWN WORDS.. How ignorant can people be???
EXPLAIN your accusation Arch! BE SPECIFIC!.. So I can show how incredibly IGNORANT you and all the liberal minded are.
REVERSE IGNORANCE… a TROUBLING new SOCIAL ILL!!!
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Here you go, Kathy:
and stuff like this:
You can’t use such incendiary language and then wonder why people think you’re making statements about entire groups of people.
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Kathy,
Screaming that liberal minded people are ignorant in all caps doesn’t prove anything. Ignorance in many forms is nothing new. For, I think your Bible says, there is nothing new under the sun.
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Guess what, Kathy? Based on all the negative, antagonistic, and cynical comments you have made on this blog, I doubt very much anyone is going to reconsider their views …
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how does it feel to be the “evil” that balances out the “good”??
If the comments in this series are an indication of what you believe the good to be, I’m quite content in knowing I balance out the crazy.
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Wow I really didn’t need to pull down her hate-filled speech from her blog entry, she’s perfectly willing to demonstrate it for us right here!
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kathy, everyone on this planet has motivations for what they do and think. If you could spend some time trying to think through why people have some of the views that differ from yours, you may start to see that there are some valid reasons for them. Even if you still disagree with the course of action, you’ll at least better understand it, and you won’t be so apt to throw around labels so liberally.
(sorry, couldn’t resist the pun! I am being sincere in this comment, though…)
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“I already know MY OWN WORDS..” – yeah, but other people don’t, but now they will, and judge for themselves. I don’t have to explain a thing, you’ve done that for me.
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Just read this and found it relevant: “Faith is often the boast of the man who is too lazy to investigate.” — F.M. Knowles
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“Screaming that liberal minded people are ignorant in all caps doesn’t prove anything.” – she may be off her meds.
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Just a note to everyone else:
Part of Kathy’s problem is that she has trouble looking beneath the labels she’s applied to everyone and seeing the person beneath. Let’s not be guilty of the same thing. Kathy is a real person with real loved ones, and we should try to keep that in mind as we talk to her. We should still speak honestly, but we need to make sure we’re not letting her situation and mindset become a joke to us.
I’m speaking to myself as much as anyone else.
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You’re absolutely right, Nate. It’s sad that the entire tone of your OP was to that end only to have it end up in this manner. As I said before, those labels allow her to dehumanize an entire group. That way she doesn’t have to think about the person behind the avatar. Only that they are a liberal/atheist.
Let’s not be guilty of the same thing. Kathy is a real person with real loved ones, and we should try to keep that in mind as we talk to her.
Guilty as charged. It is equally unfair to “diagnose” her or treat her like a label.
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An excellent article that I recommend Kathy read. It’s called “Dear Christian, You May Think You Understand Me, But You Don’t.”
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Thanks, Ruth. I’ve been doing it too. It’s easy for both sides to get worked up over such intense topics.
And Nan, that’s a great article — one I can identify with. Thanks for posting it.
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the bottom line, labels and name calling aside, is that the bible isnt any more defendable than another religion. All the errors and contradictions are there and any made up excuse or declared “resolution” doesnt erase them.
the bible is like a metal bridge with hole or gaps in it. people who like the bridge lay wooden planks over those holes. I can see the wood and I can see the metal, and I still see where the holes are, despite their efforts to cover them.
I dont trust the bridge with many wooden patches,
Kathy and mike a cool with it. that’s okay. I don think they’re stupid for thinking the bridge is perfectly sound, but i do think they’re stupid if they claim the wooden filler is per design or if they think that no one would ever have a problem with a bridge with holes in it.
for example, matthew gives one genealogy and luke gives a different one, yet both claim to be through Joseph, jesus’ man father. People make up ways to resolve this issue, but since the resolution isnt found in the bible, that means it comes from human sources (therefore the wooden patch).
i still see the issue, which should be understandable since it’s there and since the patch isnt. And if you think that’s “ignorant,” then you clearly dont know the meaning of the word.
And when people talk about BigFoot, do you say, “prove that it doesnt exist,” or do you say, “I’ll believe it when i see it?”
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@Kathy,
My apologies for getting personal like that. I had no business doing it. It doesn’t feel very nice on the receiving end. The thing is, we all have label makers. I need to throw mine out the window, too.
I respect the fact that you have your beliefs. You believe the way you do because of your life experiences, your study, your way of thinking, and your exposure.
I think we’d all appreciate that same respect. No, you don’t have to agree. You don’t have to like it. But you do need to respect that I have a right to my own beliefs.
You made the comment elsewhere that you have to come to sites like this one because we won’t come to you to debate. I, personally, don’t go to Christian websites to debate for the very reason that I believe that the host has a right to their beliefs. I blog on my own site if I have something to say about it. No one holds a gun to anyone’s head to force them to read. No one on the internet has a captive audience.
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Nate, you said:
“Here you go, Kathy:
As I explained in my article, if we can’t identify those who want to destroy us.. HOW are we going to fight them? HOW are we going to protect our freedoms/ country?? It can’t be done unless we first IDENTIFY them. But brainwashed and delusional liberals ignorantly believe that the worst thing is not our total destruction.. but offending those who want to destroy us..
*or who don’t denounce those who want to destroy us*.
Yes, I hesitated before typing that.. that you caught that Nate shows you are analyzing my words closely…. so you must understand the point I’m trying to make in my article… ignorance can’t be an excuse … it would have to “graduate” to deliberate ignorance aka dishonesty.
That sentence still doesn’t mean I am including ALL Muslims.. just those who want to destroy us and those who don’t denounce the jihadists.. and they do, very much exist. What you are implying is that I can’t point that out without being “intolerant” and “hateful” according to some delusional people here.
“and stuff like this:
As we are slowly moving into the political / social arena.. can it be?? That ALL the atheists here ALSO adhere to LIBERAL policies and beliefs?? Why YES!”
Ok, just point out ONE atheist here how doesn’t adhere to liberal views.. and I’ll gladly take back the word “all”… no problem. But I’m very confident that “all” applies or else I wouldn’t have used the word.
”
but.. how does it feel to be the “evil” that balances out the “good”??
I’m not calling you all evil.. it’s an analogy.. but at the same time, you all ARE supporting evil.. no matter how much you try to deny it.
You can’t use such incendiary language and then wonder why people think you’re making statements about entire groups of people.”
Again, just point to specifics that disprove my claim Nate.. this is how it works!
To liberals, TRUTH is “incendiary language”.. but that’s your/ the liberal’s problem.. it’s not going to silence Christians/ conservatives from speaking it.
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Arch,
me: “You just quoted my words… YOU JUST QUOTED MY WORDS.. Arch! You gave ZERO explanation to defend your accusation! I already know MY OWN WORDS.. How ignorant can people be???
EXPLAIN your accusation Arch! BE SPECIFIC!.. So I can show how incredibly IGNORANT you and all the liberal minded are.”
And HERE’S the “explanation” I got from Arch..
““I already know MY OWN WORDS..” – yeah, but other people don’t, but now they will, and judge for themselves. I don’t have to explain a thing, you’ve done that for me.”
No specifics.. what a shocker.. Your comments ALWAYS do more to support my points than the erroneous ones you attempt to make Arch.
What a joke.. all of the comments here only support my accusations.
And there’s been a lot of them.. so, that’s why I’m being direct, and asking for direct specifics to specific people.. right here on this blog.. so far..
Arch is strike one.. who ever else I’ve made direct requests to to provide specifics, you’ll be the next strikes, I’m positive about this because.. as I’ve stated, I know liberals better than they know themselves *in this regard (*to clarify context.. necessary for liberals… who have trouble applying context).
Mike, I KNOW you are right.. don’t worry.. there is only so much deliberate ignorance I can tolerate.
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Kathy, you did it again in your last paragraph.
Also, I know of at least two nonbelievers in this discussion who are more libertarian in their fiscal views vs liberal. But you roll so many things into “liberal,” that it’s hard to do any apples to apples comparison
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