You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
@Nate, “I think Buddhism’s credentials are better because it needs no credentials. ”
“In one of Buddha’s well-known parables, he likened his teachings to a raft constructed by a monk so he could cross a turbulent river from a side where there was great danger and uncertainty to a side where there was peace and safety. The monk crafted his raft from materials available to him and paddled his way, using his hands, to the other side. The Buddha asked his students whether it would be wise for the monk to carry the raft on his back from then on, grateful that it had brought him to a place of safety. His students said that would not be wise. So the Buddha suggested the monk leave the raft on the shore, thanking it for the safety it had afforded him, and again asked his students if that was wise. They agreed that it was. The Buddha then told his students that the raft was like his teachings, which were of practical assistance for the crossing but were not to be seized and held forever. The truth was in the arrival on the other side, not in the mechanics of what got the monk there.” (from the book Amen by Pastor Gretta Vosper)
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“Reason distrusts revelation in the same measure as it is distrusted by revelation. It relies on observation, reflection, critical thinking, and testing by experimentation, and it builds on what is learned in this way from generation to generation to expand knowledge and understanding.” (from the book Amen by Pastor Gretta Vosper)
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Pastor Gretta Vosper and Bishop John Shelby Spong are considered progressive christians. According to Kathy & Mike’s definition, they were never christians at all.
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Well I, KC, believe the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster to have the most reliable credentials, for the very simple reason that it’s the only religion on the market to have the courage to admit that it is pure bullshit!
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Bishop John Shelby Spong has published many books about people like Mike & Kathy. Some of the titles are:
Why Christianity Must Change or Die
The Sins of Scripture
Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism: A Bishop Rethinks the Meaning of Scripture
Resurrection: Myth or Reality?
A New Christianity for a New World: Why Traditional Faith is Dying & How a New Faith is Being Born
With or Without God: Why the Way We Live Is More Important Than What We Believe
Born of a Woman: A Bishop Rethinks the Virgin Birth and the Treatment of Women by a Male-Dominated Church
I think you get the point……
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“Well I, KC, believe the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster to have the most reliable credentials”
And Arch, I believe you provide compelling evidence for this belief as well ! The Church of FSM. It has a definite ring to it ! 🙂
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“Well I, KC, believe the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster to have the most reliable credentials”
As long as it uses Reason and not Revelation, I’m in !
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You know, in all honesty, I’d also put deism as another religion with solid credentials, though I’m not sure if “religion” is the proper term for it.
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I have yet another book title for you, KC – first, Google Francis A. Schaeffer, then look up his son’s book, Crazy for God: How I Grew Up As One of the Elect, Helped Found the Religious Right and Lived to Take All (or Almost All) of It Back.
Frank Schaeffer has written: “In the mid 1980s I left the Religious Right, after I realized just how very anti-American they are, (the theme I explore in my book Crazy For God).” He added that he was a Republican until 2000, working for Senator John McCain in that year’s primaries, but that after the 2000 election he re-registered as an independent.
He wrote: “[W]hen my late father — Religious Right leader Francis Schaeffer — denounced America and even called for the violent overthrow of the US government, he was invited to lunch with presidents Ford, Reagan and Bush, Sr.”
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“Believing that people are of the nature that they just want to do the right thing isn’t a belief a true Christian has”
Too bad, Mike. I am of the opinion there are hundreds of millions if not billions of people on this planet right now who just want to do the right thing.
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KC, it’s clear to see that you have the Big Picture!
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“I have yet another book title for you, KC – first, Google Francis A. Schaeffer, then look up his son’s book, Crazy for God:”
Thanks Arch. I have a bunch of points / credits with amazon.com. I’ll just order it . Always like broadening my horizons.
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“KC, it’s clear to see that you have the Big Picture!”
Thanks Arch. I hope so. I just try to be good, because it’s the right thing to do.
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My dog tags read “Deist” in the Army (nobody knew what it meant), because at that young age, I didn’t have the courage to say, “Atheist” – since I became a man, I learned to put aside childish things.
But in my opinion, “Deist” doesn’t work, because it presupposes a supernatural being. Regarding a god, much as Will Rogers once said, upon seeing a giraffe for the first time, “There just ain’t no sech animal!“
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Within that statement, KC, one can easily see the lack of faith in human nature – pathetic, really —
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Francis A. Schaeffer, KC, was a self-affirmed atheist, who, reputedly, set out to disprove the existence of god, by analyzing the Bible, and became not only a full-fledged theist, but the founder of America’s Religious Right – Frank Shaeffer, his son, wrote his book based on his life with Frank and his mother – Francis is reputed (as per NeuroNotes) believed sex to be wrong, but had a need to masturbate, and so used his wife’s vagina for that purpose. If I’m lyin,’ I’m dyin’ —
Well, we’re all dyin,’ but I’m not lyin’ —
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I just try to be me – because it’s the right thing to do.
As Mae West once said, “Good has nothing to do with it –“
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Nate, you said:
“It’s funny when someone accuses others of lacking objectivity while simultaneously refusing to look at the evidence they’ve provided.”
If you’ll notice, Nate.. I didn’t refuse at all. By your “reasoning”, if I give you a two page list of sites that *I believe* support my beliefs, and you don’t read all of them, that means you lack objectivity. Sorry but we are allowed some discretion. Arch has proven he lacks objectivity/ honesty.. and so did you, in this instance also.. I clearly explained that Arch NEVER answered my valid point.. so why should I have any confidence in his sources for his beliefs? .. beliefs he can’t even defend by answering a simple question?
“Anyway, that’s fine Kathy, let’s go ahead and play your game:”
Oh, ok, with you it’s “finding truth”.. but with me, it’s “a game”… because only liberals can have their own beliefs.. and decide what truth is.
“I think Buddhism’s credentials are better because it needs no credentials. Its precepts are simply principles that anyone can discover, even if they happen to follow another religion.”
What you just describes isn’t a religion. So, it’s not a valid answer. re: definition of “religion”
re·li·gion (r-ljn)
n.
1.
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
“Next question..”
No, it looks like were still stuck on the same question.. which religion has the best credentials to support it’s claimed truth?
Just admit it’s Christianity.. like Nan did. Because, it IS Christianity.
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And what credentials does deism have??
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@Kathy
Honestly? None, of course.
But what has Christianity got that Deism has not?
I would be very interested to hear what you have to offer, as a Christian, that could possibly sway me.
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JESUS H. LINDER!
…Is the name of my eldest son:) He is an adorable little Cub Scout.
So man, I step away for a few months… years, and everything goes to hell in a hand basket on this blog. Nothing but Atheists and Jesus freaks… Oh wait, that’s how it was when I left. My bad.
@Nate, How you been man? Missed you and Ark:) I’ll get to answering your question at the end of this post as all the middle part is very important for your spiritual development and I do not want you to miss any of it.
@Arkenaten, I got an entire post put up on my page to answer your comment from Eric’s blog so go check it out if you haven’t seen it yet. Hugs and Kisses. No tongue.
I like how through the entire post everyone has ignored Portals request for peace and harmony. You guys suck. Yes even you Archaeopteryx, you beautiful bird, because you only paid lip service to the request.
@Nate, Sorry. Keep reading but I can’t forget to mention you cannot go with Buddhism. It is a philosophy, not a religion so you will have to pick again. Might I recommend Greek Orthodox? I’m non-denominational Christian myself but I like their hats.
@Nan, What is up with that damn dog! It’s eyes follow me where ever I go! Like it wants to wrestle or something.
@Carmen, I am very sorry to hear about your church closing. I know your beliefs may not be the same as the others but it is always sad when a group closes. I know it is not pleasant for you so I am truly sorry.
@Kathy, When did “Liberal” and “Atheist” become synonymous? I know “Liberal” and “Yankee” mean the same thing because those people are just afraid of guns. They can’t help it.
@Tblacksman, to be referred to from here to fore as “The Troll.”
I don’t actually have anything to say to you because… well, you’re a troll. All you care about is being right. You don’t care about these people or their spiritual well being. You don’t care if they have peace and joy and where as their immortal souls are just fine, you claim to believe otherwise but do not seem to care about that either. However, that does not mean you should be banned. The only reason Arkenaten even brought it up is because you have stolen his spot and like all South African trolls, he is jealous.
To all of you who do not know me, SUCK IT!
Now Nate, you wanted evidence that Christianity, a sub-sect of Judaism, has more, or any, credentials. I give you the Old Testiment. Bare with me.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%201%20&version=KJV
If you read Gen 1:1-26 you will see, though not perfectly, that the story follows what we know about our planets evolution. From the point of the Big Bang to the point that man shows up. Even the fact the plant life would have come first, followed by sea life and then birds and land animals.
So if there is no God, and it is fine if you believe that, but how do you explain a nomadic Jew writing 5000 years ago getting it this RIGHT?!
God Bless.
God Speed.
God bye:)
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Christianity HAS no verifiable credentials, Kathy.
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“I would be very interested to hear what you have to offer, as a Christian, that could possibly sway me.”
Hawaiian music?
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@Arch
Can you visual it; Yeshua in a floral-patterned shirt a la Magnum PI?
“I told you , Higgins, you can’t be one of my disciples now get over it for my dad’s sake!”
Since I began asking direct questions Kathy and ”Jesus Sunbeam” Mike, have stopped ‘talking’ to me.
I am gutted….as you can imagine!
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“Hugs and Kisses. No tongue.</em" – You got THAT right! You gotta watch Ark and that tongue, like a damned lizard sometimes —
"Yes even you Archaeopteryx, you beautiful bird, because you only paid lip service to the request.”
MOI? Proto-bird – I’m a proto-bird. And everybody knows that archaeopteryxeses don’t have lips, any more than chickens do! Sheeesh!
“If you read Gen 1:1-26 you will see, though not perfectly, that the story follows what we know about our planet(‘)s evolution. From the point of the Big Bang to the point that man shows up. Even the fact the plant life would have come first, followed by sea life and then birds and land animals.”
You seem like a cool frood, Haydendlinder, so this isn’t meant sarcastically, but it didn’t happen that way. The stars coalesced billions of years before the sun, and the moon resulted from a collision between Earth and a Mars-sized planet, about 20-100 million years after the solar system coalesced. Single-celled life, monera, began first, and gradually diverged into the five currently existing Kingdoms: plants, fungi, animals, protista, eukaryotic – plant life was WAY down the line – life began in the sea. And birds – trust me on this – evolved from land animals.
“So if there is no God, and it is fine if you believe that, but how do you explain a nomadic Jew writing 5000 years ago getting it this RIGHT?!”
Whether or not there’s a god – bless his noodley appendages – reliable biblical scholars have determined that Gen 1 was written by a group of priests in captivity in Babylon, during the 6th century BCE, who became known as “the Priestly (P) Source,” not “a nomadic Jew writing 5000 years ago,” so you’re only off about 2,500 years – no cigar, but I could probably come up with a half-smoked cigarette, for the effort.
And thanks for the compliment – you should see the sheen on my feathers in full sunlight. I keep telling him, “Go away, Charlie!” – but he won’t listen. Keeps raving about “Tiger’s blood” and assuring me that “Things go better with Coke.” If it weren’t for the hookers he keeps bring around, I’d un-friend him in a heartbeat!
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