You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
Hayden’s comment made me think some more about Kathy’s question. Should certain world-views be considered as off limits because they don’t meet certain pre-conceived notions of what is required from the question (e.g. if they don’t fall into certain people’s definitions of “religion”)?
I am assuming the question is related to finding truth because it is a phrase that has gotten repeated many times in this series. If that’s the case then the question as phrased seems to be a question that may not get us the desired goal. A better question would be “which worldview matches up best with reality?”. Perhaps others could improve even further on that question so that it meets the goal of the discussion.
The other thing I’d like to say is that some understanding of epistemology would be helpful in these discussions. I’d even say essential. Unfortunately, while I know more about that field than the average person, I don’t know enough. It’s a field of study that I am continuing to pursue.
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Oh, I can imagine!
Kathy keeps saying she’s ignoring me, but then she keeps responding to my comments – guess that’s what I get for being irresistible. Just ask Neuro, she’s crazy about me.
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I got the same impression from his comment. Mornings suck, but got a nice laugh (not at all derisively) from some of his quips. Obviously can’t tell for sure, but seems like a cool guy with a good sense of humor. Too bad he’s gone – Arch, I’m sure the 2 of you could have had lots of fun throwing each other sarcastic commentary. 🙂
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Oh, he’s not gone Howie, he just bounced over to the Ark’s blog, where he’s continuing to yank Ark’s chain:
http://attaleuntold.wordpress.com/2014/07/11/consumer-advice-required/comment-page-1/#comment-16301
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“The time and culture that a text was written in is also important to its understanding. But this also strikes against the notion of inspiration, since God is supposed to be outside time and culture.”
HAHA what a silly argument. The people being written about are not outside of the culture and time. neither are the first readers and those through the centuries.
“When the Israelites write in a way that matches their time and place in history, and they speak of a tribal god that mirrors the other tribal gods around them, and their understanding of cosmology is geo-centric”
Sorry Till failed you again Nate. The bible has little cosmology and geo centricity is not taught in the Bible (unless you want to claim our meteorology services telling us the time of “sunrise” are teaching geo centricity). Next I guess I will read that some passage indicates the Bible teaches the earth is flat as well. Like the ever famous among skeptics – Jesus at the top of the moubtain vision. Lol
“and this god evolves as time goes by, showing a notably different nature in later times than he did in earlier times”
Wrong again. Forgiveness is ALL through the Bible and if are referring to lack of judgments in the NT well you just haven’t read very well. The NT states AD 70 was a judgement and Revelations has the mother of all judgements expressed and it aint pretty and nice.
” On the other hand, if the Bible had taken on a more precise tone that focused on clarity and accuracy, then not only would it have been easily understood by people today, but it would have been easily understood by people of any time.”
This has to be one of your silliest paragraphs of all time but its fairly representative of your deluded thinking elsewhere and that is if a book is written within a give culture, language and customs then it cant be inspired because God would have made it easy to understand by anyone in any culture speaking any language no matter how drop down lazy they were. This would require God to completely control cultures and societies to make sure over centuries that they never changed the use of words, had the same cultural reference points and even control viewpoints and outlooks to ensure none of them interfered with understanding anything in the Bible. In fact why stop at societies since family cultures can efffect how people read and view issues. Those must be controlled to to make sure there are no misunderstandings.
Sorry Nate -there’s no other word for it. Its just a stupid premise begging for laziness. Along with the Bible God has provided ample resources to understand his word. If people are too lazy to accommodate themselves of it its not God’s fault – its theirs and so yours.
“And Ruth hit on something very important. To suggest that one can’t critique a passage without going back to the original language means God would expect everyone to accept Christianity a priori.”
No it only requires the brain that God gave them be used to reference the material he made available for them to look at original language even without having a degree in Greek or hebrew. Such VASTLY silly arguments Nate. totally lacking in logic – only underlining my analysis of your post that you are mostly emotionally driven on this issue.
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“geo centricity is not taught in the Bible” – prithee tell us how else the day was lengthened by the sun standing still?
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“Such VASTLY silly arguments Nate. totally lacking in logic – only underlining my analysis of your post that you are mostly emotionally driven on this issue.”
LOL
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” All you care about is being right. You don’t care about these people or their spiritual well being. You don’t care if they have peace and joy and where as their immortal souls are just fine, you claim to believe otherwise but do not seem to care about that either.”
Well you see I don’t believe I am their baby sitters so on that some of what you say is true. I don’t believe I can take them to the water and make them drink and I certainly don’t believe that coddling their arrogance will lead to the redemption of their souls. If one of them showed the slightest bit of honesty to truly be looking for the truth then that would be another matter. Thats CLEARLY not the case when they claim that Israel being a nation is not a fulfillment of many prophecies.
It would be one thing if they said okay yes that IS a fulfilled prophecy but its not enough for me but what you see in that kind of response negating any and everything is an unreasonable belligerence
So why do i post? For people like Kathy who they want to flake out on their faith like they did. Simple – and to give them the public service that is probably more helpful than anything you propose as an alternative – Open rebuke
Proverbs 27:5 (KJV)
5 Open rebuke is better than secret love.
arrogance and false wisdom is 75% of the issue and if you think not addressing where that appears and pointing it out will do good to anyone’s soul you are sadly mistaken
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““geo centricity is not taught in the Bible” – prithee tell us how else the day was lengthened by the sun standing still?”
A relational reference that we use to this day
or ummmm….do you believe the sun rose this morning???
🙂
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“Whether or not there’s a god – bless his noodley appendages – reliable biblical scholars have determined that Gen 1 was written by a group of priests in captivity in Babylon, ”
ROFL…and by reliable he means the ones what agree with him to the exclusion of all others. Sophistry at its finest!
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“and this god evolves as time goes by, showing a notably different nature in later times than he did in earlier times”
Nate, I recommend the lecture “The God Virus”. It will shed light on why this god evolved (mutated) as time went on.
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“Thats CLEARLY not the case when they claim that Israel being a nation is not a fulfillment of many prophecies.” – everytime the temple has been torn down, it has been rebuilt – how difficult would it be to predict that it would be so again someday? And at what point does a prophecy become self-fulfilling? “Well, the prophecy says it will be done, so I guess we gotta do it!” All that’s really required to make such a prophecy, is some degree of knowledge regarding the fanaticism of those it involves, and these are a people who, yet today, well past the Age of Reason, put aluminum foil on their household switches, whether gas or electric, to remind themselves not to turn anything on or off on the Sabbath. Guess what? I prophesy they’ll do it again NEXT week.
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“everytime the temple has been torn down, it has been rebuilt – how difficult would it be to predict that it would be so again someday? And at what point does a prophecy become self-fulfilling? “Well, the prophecy says it will be done, so I guess we gotta do it!”
LOL…so we can expect the return of the Amalekites when? and the American Indians will one day retake the US because they say “I guess we gotta do it”
You so funny 🙂 Go read some history.
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No, I believe the earth revolved. But using “sunrise” and “sunset” as colloquialisms is one thing, but to say,
Now come on, I’ve seen you spin like a dervish, you’re slowing down in your old age – pop another Viagra and dig in —
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“ROFL…and by reliable he means the ones what agree with him to the exclusion of all others. Sophistry at its finest!” – says the man who gets his information from Answers In Genesis —
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“No, I believe the earth revolved. But using “sunrise” and “sunset” as colloquialisms is one thing, but to say,”
Go for it sparky 3. tell me why its right to say the sun rose and that it set but its wrong to say it stood still in reference to a given spot.
Remember expressions of incredulity are not points neither is frothing at the mouth. Please let me know if you are going to attempt to intelligently rebut that sunrise and sunset are the same kind of relational references we use to this day even in the SCIENCE of meteorology
I’ll make sure to get some popcorn. If not and its the same old rhetoric and hand waving I’ll have to pass – theres paint drying nearby somewhere more entertaining.
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“says the man who gets his information from Answers In Genesis –”
You should be so lucky. At least a few people over there might have a degree in a science subject instead of a BA in English
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farrell_Till
:):)
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Once again, you’re not answering, you’re turning it into a question and throwing it back on me. Sorry, Bub – I won’t play your games. Go see what AIG has to say, then come back and parrot it to us – until then, I’ve got a little paint drying to watch myself.
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I’ll bet you wish YOU had a BA in English – as far as I can tell, you have only a BS in BS.
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Yes, Lord Genocide stopped the earth from spinning on it’s axis at ~1040 mph (1675 km/h, 465 m/s) just so the Israelites could finish slaughtering the Amorites. Then he spun right it back up again. Sounds like the person who wrote that was clueless about the laws of motion.
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The “T ‘Mikey’ Blacksman” debating strategy:
1. When asked a question, never commit to a response – rephrase the question into a question for your opponent, then throw it back at him.
2. Ridicule any response he’s naive enough to give – you win!
Antithesis: Don’t play the game – if you ask him a question, let him answer it – don’t fall for him throwing it back at you.
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“Antithesis: Don’t play the game”
You should take your own advise. 😉
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Of course everything ON the earth continued spinning at 1040 mph (1675 km/h, 465 m/s) —
See, Mikey is trying to spin (no pun intended) it as though that was just an expression, like sunrise and sunset, and what it REALLY meant, was, “We had a really long day at the office, what with all the slaughtering and butchering and maiming and all – you got someplace I can wash up?”
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In fact, I’ll bet he’s researching it as we speak —
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Nate-
A lot of your journey resonates with me. I’ve been to a lot of the same places you’ve been, yet I continue to cling to the hope offered by this man called Jesus. Sometimes I honestly don’t know why – it’s like, even when I want to let go my hope and faith remain. Anyway, I find myself wishing the conversation here could be more civil. I have come to a place where I am comfortable that I can’t provide answers and comfortable with “I don’t know”. I wonder if we’d get more from each other if all of us could back off from the chest-puffing. I know I’ve turned a lot of people away with my feigned certainty more than my faith in past conversations. Not sure this is any more than rambling, but I thought I’d throw a couple cents in.
-Josh
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