You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
Hi Hayden! Great to hear from you again! 🙂 Despite the current state of my blog, things have been going pretty well for me lately — you?
I think Arch gave a great answer to this. I have a hard time lining up the Genesis account with what we know from science. Take this, for instance (Gen 1:6-8):
The people that wrote this apparently believed that a barrier was placed over the earth, and above it was a whole lot of water. It’s easy to see why they would think that. For one thing, the sky is blue, just like the ocean. For another, the rain has to come from somewhere:
The sun, moon, and stars were “fixed” into this barrier so we could have some light. It’s a very specific description of the cosmos, and it’s very different from what we’ve discovered in all the centuries since this was written.
I think this factors in to Arch’s and Mike’s discussion, too. We’re not just dealing with terms like “sunrise” and “sunset” in the Bible. It goes way beyond that.
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I did, go back and read my comment to him! You’ve been in a bit of a snit all day, who did YOU get up on the wrong side of?
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Hi Josh!
This echoes what Ryan (portal) said, and you both make really good points. I agree with you completely. I’ve also hit a point where I’m very comfortable with saying “I don’t know” about a lot of things, though I may not always show that in some of these comments. I definitely prefer conversations where each person offers what they think and why without the need to criticize those who don’t agree. Not sure we’ll be able to right the ship at this point, but it would certainly be nice.
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Josh! You shaved! Sorry to tell you, but it makes your ears look longer —
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“HAHA what a silly argument. The people being written about are not outside of the culture and time. neither are the first readers and those through the centuries.”
Mike does have a valid point for once in his life. The Bible was obviously written for people thousands of years ago and they thought the world was going to come to and end soon ! No need to write something for people in the future.
Their holy writers and later their main man Jesus even predicted it. AND it did NOT happen. Now there’s unfulfilled prophesies for ya , Mike ! And lots of them. Even your pal, CS Lewis said Jesus was WRONG. “‘Say what you like,’ we shall be told, ‘the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And He was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else.’ It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible.” Essay “The World’s Last Night” (1960), found in The Essential C.S. Lewis, p-385.”
Verses 1 & 3 of the first chapter of Revelation says it all. “1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.”
So why are we all arguing about what a book really says when it was NEVER intended for us to read in the first place ?
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It’s not easy to type and laugh at the same time, but no, Nate, I don’t think there’s any righting THIS ship!
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LOL — I haven’t been in a snit all day, not even. A little sensitive today? 😉
You and T (and sometimes SOM) get to going and the comment section on Nate’s posts turn into a chest-beating match which is why I rarely participate here.
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Nate, well put – it’s my preference as well along with Ryan (Portal), Josh, and some others but I share in your skepticism that the ship can head that direction.
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Kathy,
Notice the second definition.
religion:
noun
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion
I’m sticking with my answer. Do you have any follow-up questions?
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@Howie —
Yeah, it would take “all hands on deck,” to continue the analogy, and I don’t see that happening.
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“Once again, you’re not answering, you’re turning it into a question and throwing it back on me. Sorry, Bub – I won’t play your games
LOL….which means you can’t think of a way that they are different. Thanks.
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No, it means that you can’t admit you were wrong in your statement that there was no geo-centrism in the Bible. So, thanks backatcha —
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“The people that wrote this apparently believed that a barrier was placed over the earth, and above it was a whole lot of water. It’s easy to see why they would think that. For one thing, the sky is blue, just like the ocean. For another, the rain has to come from somewhere:”
What are you talking about Nate. there is water in the atmosphere and no firmament doe not mean barrier its another way of referring to the sky that birds fly in
Genesis 1:20 (KJV)
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
IF birds fly in it its not a “barrier”
“We’re not just dealing with terms like “sunrise” and “sunset” in the Bible. It goes way beyond that”
go for it
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What happened? I thought Mikey was going to start spending his time on a project that was going to “set him up for life” and would be too busy to offer his brand of reasoning to Nate’s crowd … ?? Perhaps another fantasy?
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“No, it means that you can’t admit you were wrong in your statement that there was no geo-centrism in the Bible. ”
I’m not unless you are claiming there is geo centrism in meteorology that uses the same kind of expressions. No?
🙂 then go ahead Sparky 3 – show “sunrise” and “sunset” as substantially different. We both KNOW that you can’t. Despite your hand waving that IS my answer – that that passage just like every day in our own culture refers to the relational position of the sun to our spot on the earth.
Try again to hand wave – trying to hide the fact that you got nothing isn’t working
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“What happened? I thought Mikey was going to start spending his time on a project that was going to “set him up for life” and would be too busy to offer his brand of reasoning to Nate’s crowd … ?? Perhaps another fantasy?”
Perhaps you have fallen on your head and don’t know its the weekend? Projects going nicely though. Thanks or asking.
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“Yes, Lord Genocide stopped the earth from spinning on it’s axis at ~1040 mph (1675 km/h, 465 m/s) just so the Israelites could finish slaughtering the Amorites. Then he spun right it back up again. Sounds like the person who wrote that was clueless about the laws of motion.”
Seems Like Ronnie boy is clueless about time moving at different speeds in different parts of the universe. Here your treasured resource on the topic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation
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“So why are we all arguing about what a book really says when it was NEVER intended for us to read in the first place ?”
Ken — I see your point. It’s just that if such beliefs presented in the Bible didn’t affect the human rights of others, still today; affect our laws, and indoctrinate children during crucial brain development with the threat of eternal hell, Satan, demons, shame (psychological abuse), etc., I doubt we’d be having this conversation. Remember Gary? Therefore, I think there is benefit in having these discussions.
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On Hebrew Cosmology:
Jewish Encyclopedia
See also: The Three-Story Universe
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RE:
Gosh, Mikey, here you are telling us how important it is to look at the Bible in it’s original languages, yet you’re quoting to us from the KJV in English! Let’s go to the Latin Vulgate – you should be conversant in Latin, I am – and see what it says:
“dixit etiam Deus producant aquae reptile animae viventis et volatile super terram sub firmamento caeli” – “over the earth under (not “in”) the firmament of heaven” – “super,” meaning “above,” “sub,” meaning, “below.”
If they are forced to fly UNDER it, then I guess it IS a barrier! Read a book, Mike —
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” And lots of them. Even your pal, CS Lewis said Jesus was WRONG. “‘Say what you like,’ we shall be told, ‘the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime.”
Sorry KK your failure each time in bringing up CS Lewis is that he never was much of a Bible scholar. Now if you wanted to rebut creativity in some issues in regard to the Chronicles of Narnia then perhaps you could use him convincingly.
Lewis was seemingly unaware (as you are no doubt and many others) that “this” in greek (as in Engish) can refer to a current time or to time being talked about. What determines the meaning is context. Once you examine the context your (and Preterists) position falls apart swiftly.
If you wish you can debate me on it. You will lose (but or course claim you didn’t) but your position will be dismantled. I love me some Matthew 24. 🙂
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Time dilation has nothing to do with violating the laws of motion.
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T “Mikey” Blacksman, the King of Obfuscation! You were wrong, you were caught being wrong, and wiggle as you may – your stock in trade – everyone knows you were wrong.
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Time dilation! Does the man know no shame? Is there NO depth to which he won’t sink to appear to be right? All I can say, is holy crap!
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“Sorry KK your failure each time in bringing up CS Lewis is that he never was much of a Bible scholar. ”
And I suppose you are ? This is probably why you rarely quote scholars because you really do think you are the smartest one to quote. Very delusional Mikey .
I think we should all just wave you into the sunset.
I knew you were full of yourself when you acted like you had no clue who Geza Vermes was. You simply referred to him as an author.
I doubt that you have read very many scholar’s works. No need to. You know it all ! 🙂
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