You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
TBlacksman, I am concerned. As someone who is defending Christianity, you are doing so with some slanderous remarks to your fellow (wo)men. Did Jesus not speak of loving one’s enemies in Luke 6?
27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
Yes, there are some harsh remarks thrown in your direction, I have seen, but for one who defends the Gospel, there seems to be significant hypocrisy in your approach at times. Hold concern for your brothers and sisters, it’s okay to release the contempt you are holding on to. Forgiveness is available should you be open to accept it.
LikeLike
“Therefore, I think there is benefit in having these discussions.”
Victoria, I couldn’t agree more. I was being facetious . 🙂
LikeLike
“What determines the meaning is context. Once you examine the context your (and Preterists) position falls apart swiftly.”
Mike, once we all read anything you wrote in context, your position fell immediately apart. 🙂
LikeLike
Yes, Mikey – Repent!
LikeLike
Confess your arrogance and spite and pride, and good lord willin’ and the creek don’t rise, you’ll be forgiven! You can do it right here on the board, we’ll gladly listen to your confession and prescribe your penance!
LikeLike
I’ve noticed his responses are getting weaker and weaker – he’s running out of steam.
LikeLike
“Gosh, Mikey, here you are telling us how important it is to look at the Bible in it’s original languages, yet you’re quoting to us from the KJV in English! Let’s go to the Latin Vulgate – you should be conversant in Latin, I am – and see”
ROFL….Arch thinks the Bible was written in Latin.
But anyway I will throw you a bone. you have a point about under in that birds do not fly that high generally (however the are the birds of the Firmament heaven) but sorry Firmament does NOT mean barrier. Maybe you can look that up in Latin too:)
You people just don’t do much study. There are three heavens as Far as the Bible records
The firmament you are referring to ERRONEOUSLY as a barrier is Heaven number one
“And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day”
The New King James Version
So Heaven IS a firmament singular – one of at least three
2 Corinthians 12:2 (KJV)
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
The first is the what we would call our atmosphere, the third would be heaven where God dwells (as referenced above). That leaves us with a second in between. So um
The earth’s atmosphere
A space above that
and God’s heaven
So um Wheres the cosmological problem? None of them are “barriers”
LikeLike
My guess is that Ol’ Mikey is off reading what the experts have to say about Gen 1:20 in the Latin Vulgate! After all his bluster about languages, he knows less than some of US do. What a Schmoo!
Omni est Gallia divide en tres partes, Mike – didja know that?
LikeLike
“TBlacksman, I am concerned. As someone who is defending Christianity, you are doing so with some slanderous remarks to your fellow (wo)men. ”
Where? where be the slander? Surely thou jesteth. Telling the truth is slander? Do tell.
anyway the whole chiding me using Bible verses thing has been done. i don’t fault you for unoriginality these threads have been long but you forgot a passage
“Matthew 23:14-17 (KJV)
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? ”
Slander or telling the truth?
LikeLike
“My guess is that Ol’ Mikey is off reading what the experts have to say about Gen 1:20 in the Latin Vulgate! After all his bluster about languages, he knows less than some of US do.”
Embarrassing second note to Arch. the Bible was NOT written in Latin. LOL This place is tooooooo funny. 🙂 🙂
LikeLike
But wait, Mike – I thought your god lived beyond space and time!
No, the Bible was written in Ancient Hebrew, mostly, with some New Hebrew and some Aramaic (after the Jews filtered back in from Babylon), then the NT was written entirely in Greek, but the OT was first translated into Greek, then, into the Latin Vulgate, where it remained suspended for a thousand years, due to the prohibition, upon penalty of death, of owning a Bible in any language other than Latin. So, a novice like you might ask what was the Bible written in, or one could well ask what was it read in most often, and the answer to that, before the 1600’s, would have been Latin. Read a book, Mike —
Or better yet, go watch paint dry, you’ll be more productive.
LikeLike
Jason, it has long been apparent to everyone on this blog that the individual who calls himself TBlacksman (Mike) is not interested in demonstrating the “Christian” values that are spoken of in Luke (and other places). It is not his goal to “defend the gospel” as much as it is to argue, insult, make snide/slanderous/harsh remarks to those who disagree with him. And unfortunately, your gentle reprimand will most likely be thrown back in your face.
LikeLike
Nate, you said:
“The people that wrote this apparently believed that a barrier was placed over the earth, and above it was a whole lot of water. It’s easy to see why they would think that. For one thing, the sky is blue, just like the ocean. ”
I’m curious Nate, why they would think that the life spans of humans would diminish greatly after the sky was cleared of the barrier?
http://www.extinctionshift.com/KNOWLEDGE_BIBLE/Firmament_Gen.htm
“Hi Hayden! Great to hear from you again! 🙂 Despite the current state of my blog, ”
What is that supposed to mean?? Your blog is in a bad state because people are challenging your assertions/ beliefs? Or is it because you are unable to successfully DEFEND those challenges? That’s the only way I can interpret your statement. Or.. maybe Mike and are just not being “nice” enough while we are disagreeing? I really hope that’s not it.. but, that IS how the liberal minded think.. disagreement is “mean”.. debating is just another word for “fighting”.
Again, Nate, “finding truth” (IF that is your TRUE goal) can only truly be done through open dialogue with those who disagree… and if BOTH sides apply objectivity, the truth WILL surface eventually.
But if everyone agrees on a “truth” that is VOID of actual proof.. you all are just fooling yourselves… you’re “feeding” your egos.. nothing more.
“Notice the second definition….
I’m sticking with my answer. Do you have any follow-up questions?”
Ok, well, then my follow up question would be to explain more specifically my context of my original question.. and then ask it again.
The context is pretty clear Nate.. it’s in regards to our origins. God or no God. So, when I ask which religion has better credentials, it’s in that context. The reason you gave for Buddhism actually states that it doesn’t conflict with other religions.. so that makes it inapplicable.
And if you want to argue that Buddhism does give an explanation to our origins, then I would ask, again, WHAT are the credentials that back up these claims and how is it more compelling than Christianity?
LikeLike
Thanks for clarifying, Nan! Around these parts, we have another word for people like him – shit disturber. 🙂
LikeLike
“But wait, Mike – I thought your god lived beyond space and time!”
He does Arch. Let me see if I can help you out with this.
2 is the next number beyond 1
3 is the next number beyond 2
so it goes like this
1……….2……….3……….
so beyond 2 being space time would be………3!!!
Got it now?
“then, into the Latin Vulgate, where it remained suspended for a thousand years, due to the prohibition, upon penalty of death, of owning a Bible in any language other than Latin. So, a novice like you might ask what was the Bible written in, or one could well ask what was it read in most often, and the answer to that, before the 1600′s, would have been Latin.”
and um you are hoping all that hand waving will cover for your blunder of conflating Latin with an original language of the bible? Good luck with that but it didn’t work.
LikeLike
“Time dilation has nothing to do with violating the laws of motion.”
You are right Ron it doesn’t but the passage you are referring to has EVERYTHING to do with getting more time if you had bothered to read it
LikeLike
Embarrassing second note to Arch. the Bible was NOT written in Latin.
REALLY embarassing note to Mikey, yes, it was, for over a thousand years, it was available in no other language. Read a book, Mike.
LikeLike
What do you suppose happened to little Kathy? Could she have gone in search of the Big Picture?
LikeLike
Mike… your response to Hayden nailed it… I agree 100%.
When it is clear, when it’s been PROVEN, that there is a real lack of objectivity, the only
choice we have is to try and break down that barrier.. no amount of pleading to turn and follow
Jesus will work UNTIL that wall of pride and ego comes down. We’ve been revealing that wall over and over using their very OWN words. I’m always wondering how long deliberate ignorance can survive when it’s been pointed out so many times. Quite a few times lately, I’ve been tempted to give up, believing that it just isn’t going to happen.. their fate is sealed. I honestly don’t know what it will take.
Hayden,
re: your question about liberals and atheists being the same… in my experience with both, I rarely find any differences. It’s true of the overwhelming majority… pride and ego are at the root of their beliefs.
LikeLike
“and if BOTH sides apply objectivity, the truth WILL surface eventually.” – how could BOTH sides apply objectivity, when to you, “objectivity” means only something with which you agree?
LikeLike
“REALLY embarassing note to Mikey, yes, it was, for over a thousand years, it was available in no other language”
Second embarrassing note to Arch – Only being able to be read in Latin In some parts of the world does NOT make it an original language of the Bible no matter how much you beg and plead
LikeLike
William, I know I still need to answer your questions.. could you please repost them on this thread? I’ve lost track.. sorry..
LikeLike
Arch said:
“archaeopteryx1
July 12, 2014 at 2:28 pm
What do you suppose happened to little Kathy? Could she have gone in search of the Big Picture?”
re:
“Kathy (@kayms99)
July 12, 2014 at 2:20 pm
Nate, you said: ..”
LikeLike
Kathy, you have ch osedn to partner with the most arrogant, egoistic individual I have ever met, and yet have no more sense than to say of us, “pride and ego are at the root of their beliefs.” I can’t possibly imagine why we have a hard time accepting you at your word —
LikeLike
Here’s how Christianity’s “credentials” are taught.
LikeLike