You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
Show me, Mikey, where I said that Latin was the Bible’s original language? In fact, I even outlined the history of the Bible’s languages. That’s just another obfuscation tactic on your part, to hide the fact that you were wrong again. That’s becoming a trend with you, Mike.
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“Kathy (@kayms99)
July 12, 2014 at 2:20 pm
Nate, you said: ..”
🙂 🙂 You will have to see with Arch. Trifocals must have been on the Fritz
“Kathy, you have chosen to partner with the most arrogant, egoistic individual I have ever met,”
IF not for others far worse that might have been technically correct since it cannot accurately be said one has met themselves.
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Here arch. This is where you ocnflated my saying we should look at original languages with latin.
“Gosh, Mikey, here you are telling us how important it is to look at the Bible in it’s original languages, yet you’re quoting to us from the KJV in English! Let’s go to the Latin Vulgate – you should be conversant in Latin”
do fix those trifocals
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Ron, that video breaks my heart. It also brings back painful memories. Not for me so much because I didn’t “accept Christ” until I was in my 20’s, but for my children … to whom I subjected this same type of brainwashing. The thing is, what is happening here is only obvious to those of us who no longer “believe.” To Christians, it is a totally acceptable way to reach children. So sad. And sickening as well.
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Arch, you said:
“Kathy, you have ch osedn to partner with the most arrogant, egoistic individual I have ever met, and yet have no more sense than to say of us, “pride and ego are at the root of their beliefs.” I can’t possibly imagine why we have a hard time accepting you at your word –”
Arch, where is the pride and ego in our beliefs?? What you perceive as pride and ego are in our responses that point out YOUR pride and ego.. so, of course you aren’t going to like that and call us arrogant… but the fact is, we’ve proven YOUR lack of objectivity & honesty. It’s all on you.. we’re just pointing out the truth. And, liberals don’t like truth.. unless YOU get to determine what that truth is… no matter that in reality, it’s no truth at all.. but that’s ultimately beside the point.
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What did I say? His retorts are getting weaker by the minute! He’s losing it —
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Yeah, Arch! Haven’t you figured it out YET that the “TRUTH” can only be found in the remarks of Kathy and Mike? Good grief! Anyone who reads this blog can see that!??!
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Nan, please.. you give comments that contain zero substance.. Mike and I ARE posting comments that have actual substance.. they address the actual points. Anyone who is applying objectivity will agree with my point.. not because I said it, but BECAUSE I made a point of substance that you or any other atheist here will NOT be able to refute. This is how it works, liberals. 🙂
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“in it’s original languages – I outlined those languages for you, which obviously you couldn’t be bothered to read, and Latin was last in the ascension, next to English. I explained that the Biblee had been written in no other language than Latin for over a thousand years. Your further effort at obfuscation constitutes an awful lot of work, just to avoid admitting you were wrong.
Don’t bother – handwaving won’t save you now —
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You sadden me, Kathy – you truly do. A mind really is a terrible thing to waste.
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re: Ron’s video “Jesus Camp”
Yes, maybe it was too intense for children of that age.. but she was speaking truth. And.. you know how that goes with liberals.. shame on that woman for encouraging children to not talk dirty..
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Arch said:
“You sadden me, Kathy – you truly do. A mind really is a terrible thing to waste.”
Another comment completely void of substance.. with no addressing of the actual points… what a shocker!
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Kathy, neither of you has made a “point of substance” since you got here, which amply illustrates the degree of your “objectivity”.
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What does “talk dirty” mean to you, Kathy?
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“in it’s original languages – I outlined those languages for you, which obviously you couldn’t be bothered to read, and Latin was last in the ascension, next to English. I explained that the Biblee had been written in no other language ”
Translated arch not written. Sheesh such density. Latin has no place in the conversation whatsoever in discussion original languages of the Bible. Try again.
You’ve made no point that proves anything regardless. No matter how you beg and whine and cry firmament does NOT mean “barrier” and this blows up all your claims —-
“You people just don’t do much study. There are three heavens as Far as the Bible records
The firmament you are referring to ERRONEOUSLY as a barrier is Heaven number one
“And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day”
The New King James Version
So Heaven IS a firmament singular – one of at least three
2 Corinthians 12:2 (KJV)
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
The first is the what we would call our atmosphere, the third would be heaven where God dwells (as referenced above). That leaves us with a second in between. So um
The earth’s atmosphere
A space above that
and God’s heaven
So um Wheres the cosmological problem? None of them are “barriers”
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Arch said:
“Kathy, neither of you has made a “point of substance” since you got here, which amply illustrates the degree of your “objectivity”. ”
Look! MORE POINTLESS babble!
yet, you ask..
archaeopteryx1
July 12, 2014 at 4:06 pm
“What does “talk dirty” mean to you, Kathy?”
Liberals always “pick and choose” which points to address..
this is DISHONEST.. it reveals a LACK of desire to find the truth..
Clearly the ONLY desire is to be “right”. If you really wanted to know what
the truth is, you’d WANT to address all the points that challenge your beliefs.
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You don’t know how to discuss, Kathy, the idea of a discussion with you is out of the question.
Which bachelor has the prettiest wife, Kathy – none, bachelor’s don’t have wives. Which religion is the most credentialed – none, all religions are bogus, and thus don’t have credentials. Case closed.
Now, what does “talk dirty” mean to you, Kathy?
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“Gosh, Mikey, here you are telling us how important it is to look at the Bible in it’s original languages, yet you’re quoting to us from the KJV in English! Let’s go to the Latin Vulgate – you should be conversant in Latin”
Mike, again you are totally wrong ! Arch was suggesting the Latin Vulgate because you were using the KJV.
No where did he say Latin was the original language. You are lying , Mike and you know it !
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“No where did he say Latin was the original language. You are lying , Mike and you know it !”
LOL sparky 2 tries to come to the rescue of sparky 3. I know he wrote this
““Gosh, Mikey, here you are telling us how important it is to look at the Bible in it’s original languages, yet you’re quoting to us from the KJV in English! Let’s go to the Latin Vulgate – you should be conversant in Latin””
Which IS (no matter how much you beg and cry ) conflating the issue of understanding the original languages with Latin
“Arch was suggesting the Latin Vulgate because you were using the KJV.”
The KJV was tanslated from the Hebrew and Greek. Buy a clue
Again the issue of Latin had nothing to do with anything.
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Anyone who is applying objectivity will agree with my point.. not because I said it, but BECAUSE I made a point of substance that you or any other atheist here will NOT be able to refute. — Kathy
Kathy, your “points of substance” have been refuted time and time again. The problem is you simply can’t see beyond your own “objectivity” to recognize when someone has pointed out the error of your thinking.
So like I said before — around and around it goes.
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Hey KK since you are here. Take a stab at what your pal has been avoiding
FIRST
” tell me why its right to say the sun rose and that it set but its wrong to say it stood still in reference to a given spot.
Remember expressions of incredulity are not points neither is frothing at the mouth. Please let me know if you are going to attempt to intelligently rebut that sunrise and sunset are the same kind of relational references we use to this day even in the SCIENCE of meteorology”
I’ve heard crickets on that subject up to now and
SECOND
““You people just don’t do much study. There are three heavens as Far as the Bible records
The firmament you are referring to ERRONEOUSLY as a barrier is Heaven number one
“And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day”
The New King James Version
So Heaven IS a firmament singular – one of at least three
2 Corinthians 12:2 (KJV)
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
The first is the what we would call our atmosphere, the third would be heaven where God dwells (as referenced above). That leaves us with a second in between. So um
The earth’s atmosphere
A space above that
and God’s heaven
So um Wheres the cosmological problem? None of them are “barriers”
More crickets on that too.
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TBlacksman, the passage you shared with me reflects what many modern day churches seem to tend to do. It’s likely why Christianity is under such attack these days as well.
As for slander, upon a quick scroll I came across this:
“Your status as a hack is hereby firmly established. Thats as bone head stupid as a spanish only speaker claiming the need to refer to the nuances of English when studying Shakespeare is a red herring”
I’m guessing by your response that you must be fulfilled and inspired having such derogatory language spoken of and to you when someone else’s truth is that you are mistaken? Are you sure you are loving your neighbour as yourself?
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Wading in and raising my hand to ask a question:
Is it true that the oldest Hebrew manuscripts are from the 2n & 3rd century B.C.? Was this the original Hebrew language that these would have been written in? Or was this a translation into a newer Hebrew language?
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He was caught with his pants down and knows it, KC – that’s just another of his ways of trying to wiggle out of it.
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The earliest proto-Hebrew inscriptions, Ruth, date back to 1000, BCE to a single piece of pottery – the Hebrews seem not to have had a written language prior to that. The Hebrew language evolved, just as all languages do (for a look at the evolution of English, Google Chaucer). After the fall of Jerusalem in the 6th century BCE, they came back from Babylon late in that century, speaking Aramaic, and continued to do so – Yeshua spoke Aramaic, not Hebrew. Of course, when Alexander conquered the Levant, Greek began to be spoken among the better educated, at least as a language for business. Then, a couple of hundred years later, Rome conquered, and Latin became the lengua franca.
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