You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
“After over a decade and a half of study I have not found anything compelling against the Bible”
absence of evidence isnt evidence of absence mike – isnt that how it goes?
but, keep looking. If you have that good and honest heart, ye shall find it.
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Ruth, cont..
me: “And liberals always try to take tithing out of the equation.. that makes no sense. It’s the religious churches/ organizations that help the needy more than any liberal group. ”
“The reason for this is that only a tiny fraction of tithing goes toward benevolence in most any church budget. Most tithes go toward administrative costs, education, missions, etc. In fact, where I live(in South Georgia), most churches take up a completely separate benevolence offering because their tithes don’t really go toward that. Have you looked at your church’s budget? Have you noticed how much goes where? Being the bastion of objectivity you are, surely you would have to realize that tithing doesn’t equal benevolence. ”
This just isn’t true Ruth. It’s another example of atheist propaganda that gets spread around
and believed by all those who want to believe it.
As I pointed out to Neuro, just look at ANY town.. how many Christian organizations are helping the homeless and needy and then tally up the number of secular groups doing the same.. the word “tally” is a joke.. there is no comparison.. so where do you think those Christian org. get their funds from??
Yes, it’s VERY true that there are expenses with having a church as with any building that hosts large groups of people.. lots of expenses, that anyone who has to pay living expenses would understand.. that is, IF they apply objectivity they will realize this.
As for your claim that a “tiny fraction” goes towards helping the needy, I’d just ask for your proof / source of this “fact”. And if you give me one example, remember, that doesn’t speak for the THOUSANDS of others.. nor would 2 or 3… yes, you can just look at some churches and see their sin of pride on full display.. their desire to have the “prettiest” or biggest church.. but even then what’s your proof that just a “tiny” amount is helping others??? I guarantee you those big fancy churches are spending thousands upon thousands of money helping the needy.
So, once again Ruth, you have given evidence of YOUR lack of objectivity.
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“So, bottom line, I’ve given evidence to support my claims.. over and over. I can’t force you all to “drink” the water.. sooner or later, I’ve got to walk away and leave you to die of thirst.. there’s nothing else I can do.” – kathy
what evidence? martyrs, prophecies, history mining, what else?
and if you look on the link, they often cite their sources…
and I hate to even acknowledge this, but you keep mentioning “leftist” or “liberal” and have talked about politics a little…
you should know that many “liberals” are devout Christians and many “conservatives” are steadfast atheists… it’s comments like this that discredit you further because it’s an absurd and baseless generalization. It does not add any clarity to the conversation, only detracts from it. It gives the impression that you are so far right, that you are last person who should preach about objectivity.
and here’s another tip, if everyone is having problems understanding your points, the problem may be you instead of everyone else – just something to consider.
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“Ezekiel 37:1-28 ESV ”
Thats a vision Neuro – of all the passages you couldn’t even pick a good one. Visions are like dreams. Do you dream? do people ever talk in your dreams? or are they all like early black and white film before the “talkies” with the writing down the bottom?
If the latter get that checked out. your mind is telling you something. 😉
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I asked him time and time again to give a better explanation for our existence since he continuously ridicules my explanation.. he hasn’t given me ANY answer.. nothing but crickets! If he doesn’t have an answer.. FINE.. that’s OK! Yes.. read that AGAIN.. THAT’S OK!
Just ADMIT it and then we can move on.. a lack of admission or an answer DEMONSTRATES A LACK OF OBJECTIVITY.
Good lord, woman, how many times can arch or any of the rest of answer this question? He did answer the question. He posited Krauss’ explanation. And that’s as good as what you’ve got. The only thing is you add a supreme being to the equation.
The truth of the matter is, we don’t know. None of us knows. Not you, not me, not arch. We don’t know! You say you have an explanation. Fine. That’s ok. Really it is. Just because you have a possible explanation doesn’t make it the right one. Your reply here tells me you haven’t been paying attention or reading the replies for anything except to find where you could call us biased or ignorant. I’m doubting seriously that we are the ignorant ones here. You seriously lack reading comprehension skills if you think nobody’s answered your question. Again, just because you don’t like the answer doesn’t mean one hasn’t been given.
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“Mike — do you hear voices, too?”
If you don’t then turn up the hearing aid. If that doesn’t work get offline and get some friends.
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“This just isn’t true Ruth. It’s another example of atheist propaganda that gets spread around
and believed by all those who want to believe it” – kathy
interestingly I attended a church group that did not believe it was authorized, and therefore even sinful, to help the needy (the needy outside the church) with church funds – it was kind of expected for the individuals to do that to some degree…
not that I care what a church does with its money, but there are some (I wouldn’t care to guess percentages) who give very little to the needy, and who would also suggest it’s a position of pride to act outside of god’s direct commands…
they would ask for a passage that shows it’s okay to use the church money in such a way…
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“It could be that you and Ark and William are right – maybe I simply don’t have what it takes, either intellectually or because of heavy indoctrination, to see the truth. My question to Ark is, what is to be done about me then? If I am one of those unfortunate few who cannot be shown the truth, how does one deal with me then? It seems, from that perspective, it’s unfair for me to indoctrinate my children the same way. But, if effort upon effort to show me the truth fails, then where do we go?”
Josh,
Your comment was a breath of fresh air. I’ve been where you’ve been, and I would have never thought in a million years that I’d be an unbeliever someday. It’s not so much that I don’t believe that there could be a creator. Perhaps someday we will discover that there is, but right now there simply is no evidence of this which is why the belief in got relies solely on faith and feel-good endorphins that come from belief that someone is looking out for us, like a parent of a child would feel secure in this knowing.
There are certain times in a child’s brain development where wiring becomes permanent and very difficult to atrophy. That’s why organized religion want to get children indoctrinated between certain ages. And if we are in the right environment, these neural networks of belief will be reinforced. If you are included to go to church every week, and read your bible, you are reinforcing your belief — those neural networks. My belief would have been reinforced had I not been quite empathic, curious, had access to science books, massive amounts of research, and experimented with wiring my brain to have the exact same experiences that people attribute to a god experience.
But the more I studied this Yahweh, the more I realized that this god was simply nothing more than a god of the Bronze/Iron Age, with the awareness and intellect of a Bronze/Iron Age human. I also realized I was far more moral than this god, Jesus’ daddy. If Jesus existed, what he did was embellished, and more and more information is coming in about how the manuscripts in the bible (no originals, btw) were corrupted through the years.
Why would I want to bow down to such a god who, at times, has acted just like the worst of kings and alpha chimpanzees and baboons?
I can create a sensed presences, like I experienced as a believer simply by using certain neurological techniques. But this sensed presence can be created in a number of ways, and people automatically assume it’s a god. Here’s an example of the power that we have through self-programming — by becoming the master of our thought-life. Organized religion has said that a god does this — changes us. No, we do this. We are far more empowered than authoritarian religion wants us to realize. And if people have behavioral problems and can’t be prosocial, then there is something gong on neurologically, and there’s plenty of research to back this up.
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“Good lord, woman, how many times can arch or any of the rest of answer this question? He did answer the question. He posited Krauss’ explanation. And that’s as good as what you’ve got. ”
ROFL> 🙂
What is this? Comedy Hour at Nate’s?
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As for your claim that a “tiny fraction” goes towards helping the needy, I’d just ask for your proof / source of this “fact”. And if you give me one example, remember, that doesn’t speak for the THOUSANDS of others.. nor would 2 or 3… yes, you can just look at some churches and see their sin of pride on full display.. their desire to have the “prettiest” or biggest church.. but even then what’s your proof that just a “tiny” amount is helping others??? I guarantee you those big fancy churches are spending thousands upon thousands of money helping the needy.
So, once again Ruth, you have given evidence of YOUR lack of objectivity.
You’ve clearly not investigated or looked at many church budgets. I wasn’t even talking about a church’s sinful desires to be the prettiest or the biggest. I clearly said in my reply the most churches take up a separate benevolence offering. But those stats that say churches give the most to charity include the entire tithe which skews the picture.
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“Thats a vision Neuro – of all the passages you couldn’t even pick a good one. ”
You are one very trusting dude. Gullible would be the word.
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@ Mike,
Laugh all you want. Your best explanation for our existence is materialism + magic. I just haven’t bought into the +magic part.
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Josh, sorry for the typos and grammar. I didn’t proof. If you need further clarification, let me know.
Corrections:
If you are ‘included’ should read –> if you are inclined to to go church
— > that come from belief that someone is looking out for us, like a parent — a child would feel secure in this knowing.
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“Mike, i think you’re not quite right regarding contradictions. The way you’re describing it, a true contradiction is only ever present if every little detail is explicitly described.”
Now you just told me I should consider not calling people liars and then you went ahead and lied. See why?
I just finished describing and you just went ahead and made up your own thing. tsk tk
“The context in matthew makes it seem like the women saw the stone rolled away even though there is nothing that specific that literally states that they saw it rolled away with their eyes, although the context seems to imply it. ”
tip to you – whenever you have to put soo many “seems” in one sentence its probably best to just skip the carpel tunnel syndrome possibiliies and say
“Okay it never said so” see how quick that was? less key strokes. Your fingers will thank you
“But even so, what about the location of the angels at the tomb? Is there no contradiction there, and if not how do you reconcile it?’
different angels different times. EZ peazy. I realize there are a lot of Angel statues out there but it is not instructive of their ability to move.
“and could you or Kathy provide what a true contradiction looks like?”
already did which is why you wrote your paragraph filled with “seems” that failed to admit your claim has come apart at the seams.
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ROFL
“Laugh all you want. Your best explanation for our existence is materialism + magic. I just haven’t bought into the +magic part.” Ruth now
“Good lord, woman, how many times can arch or any of the rest of answer this question? He did answer the question. He posited Krauss’ explanation. And that’s as good as what you’ve got.” Ruth few minutes ago
;)….if everything out of nothing aint magic then call the authorities – magic has been a victim of identity theft.
careful.. some pretzel poses can hurt your back for good.
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“Neuro-
I think I missed something. I didn’t know there was a video. I was responding to what you wrote. Maybe this just goes to prove the point about my intelligence ”
@Josh,
LOL — no, I flubbed up with the html. I intended to embed the link in the word “This.” Just click anywhere on the red font. I didn’t intentionally queue it up, but for some weird reason it did queue when I messed up embedding the link.
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Hi Kathy,
Yes, I have to admit I have not read all your comments. I just found out about this blog and hopped on late on this particular post. There are several hundred comments in these last two posts. Would you be so kind enough as to give me a short list of your evidence? Let me give you an example of the evidence that Mormons have given to me.
1. There are some (vague) references to a future people hearing the Gospel in another land.
2. Joseph Smith was an honest man who claims to have received Golden Tablets from the angel Moroni in the early 1800’s containing God’s new “Word” for the people of North America—the Book of Mormon. The LDS claim to have signed affidavits of men who saw the Golden Tablets before the angel took them back to heaven.
3. If you read the Book of Mormon, the Heavenly Father will speak to you in an inner voice and you will feel his presence. That will be your proof of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.
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Ruth,
“Good lord, woman, how many times can arch or any of the rest of answer this question? He did answer the question. He posited Krauss’ explanation. And that’s as good as what you’ve got. The only thing is you add a supreme being to the equation. ”
Ruth, he’s never given me an answer.. yes, he did post an hour long video but I simply asked him to give me a short summary of this “answer” before I invested the time.. and he DIDN’T.. because he couldn’t.. because it makes NO SENSE. It’s such nonsense that people who attempt to give it as an answer, can’t even put their “answer” into their own words. That video is nothing more than atheist desperation… trying to avoid the obvious.
Sorry, your disingenuous attempt to defend yourself and Arch failed.
And I’ve also asked Arch DIRECTLY to back up his accusation of my article as nothing but hate and vitriol.. again, NOTHING. Yet, he continues to demand that I answer his questions WHILE not answering mine… typical liberal.
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“and could you or Kathy provide what a true contradiction looks like?”
already did which is why you wrote your paragraph filled with “seems” that failed to admit your claim has come apart at the seams.” – mike
well, what you gave wasn’t a true contradiction because it it said the women saw the tomb rolled away, it didn’t say that all the women saw it… it didn’t say whether there something blocking the view of the women in back, while the women in front had an unobstructed view.
Remember, this isn’t like an easter play.
So, if you can give a good illustration of a true contradiction, that would be helpful. Kathy, you;re welcome to offer one too.
“Now you just told me I should consider not calling people liars and then you went ahead and lied. See why?”
I guess I dont, sorry. I would say that you seem to be lying yourself, but i see that you only operate in absolutes… regardless, if I see something and undertsnad something, then it can still seem a certain way to me – see why?
“different angels different times. EZ peazy. I realize there are a lot of Angel statues out there but it is not instructive of their ability to move.” – mike
well, maybe, but having them all happen in different places at the same time all at once, by divine miracle hasnt been disproven, so you really should accept that.
But I’m trying to imagine how that may have gone – different angels at different times… nate wrote a “gospel” that lumped them all together – did you agree with that one, or would you like to provide your own for comparison?
How’s it easy when it begs more questions? So, if none of the gospels got all of the major details alone, why should we believe that collectively they got all the major details and none were left out? I guess we dont know what we dont know. and why were the women confused in the tomb about jesus’ whereabouts after the angel outside already told then what was up? stuff like that…
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“;)….if everything out of nothing aint magic then call the authorities – magic has been a victim of identity theft.”
mike, you should know that Krauss isnt a religious head, and doesnt declare that his hypothisis is the only way, but he suggests it’s likely way.
You’re trying so desperately to make krauss out to be the atheists high priest, but he isnt.
so, then maybe, nothing didnt come from nothing… or, it could, as you believe, have come from a creator.
So, once again, how do you get from creator to jesus?
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Ruth,
“You’ve clearly not investigated or looked at many church budgets. I wasn’t even talking about a church’s sinful desires to be the prettiest or the biggest. I clearly said in my reply the most churches take up a separate benevolence offering. But those stats that say churches give the most to charity include the entire tithe which skews the picture.”
You’re being dishonest Ruth.. you made a claim that a “tiny fraction” went towards helping the needy.
“You’ve clearly not investigated or looked at many church budgets.”
Well, “clearly” you have.. so where’s the evidence that a “tiny fraction” goes towards helping the needy.. and that this is true of most churches??
This is exactly why I make my accusations of lack of objectivity.. because you LACK OBJECTIVTY.. based on your very own words. And your very own words also clearly show WHY you lack objectivity… pride and ego.
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“Ruth, he’s never given me an answer.. yes, he did post an hour long video but I simply asked him to give me a short summary of this “answer” before I invested the time.. and he DIDN’T.. because he couldn’t..”{ kathy
it may not have been an answer you wanted, but it was an answer…
and didnt you say something earlier about giving conditions before posting sources as being liberal, and now you’re giving conditions before you listen to read the sources?
how is the objective?
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No. What I am saying is that people like Nate and every other deconvertee simply found a trigger was the catalyst that began their deconversion.
Nate mentions the problem of evil ( if I recall) . Others have their own story.
Yes, he overcame it.
How do you suppose it is that some people can research for many years, sometimes their whole lives, and not come to the conclusion that you have?
There may be a mental or emotional block. ( ask Neuro) or they are simply unwilling to accept the truth. Look at the Clergy Project, for example. Many pastors continue even though they have discovered the fallacious nature of religion. Like a gay person who is yet to come out.
<blockquote<Is it that they aren’t smart enough? Is it that the indoctrination is too strong?
Yes ( regarding religion) and yes.
Not dangerous per se, unless they plan to fly into tall buildings or blow shit up. But capable of causing harm – child abuse etc. via further indoctrination.
As science has been the undoing of myriad of other religions so it will be the undoing of Christianity and many others….in time. It is a given.
However, all schools that teach Creationism should be forced to close,and barbaric practices such as infant circumcision for religious reasons should be outlawed.
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“You’re trying so desperately to make krauss out to be the atheists high priest, but he isnt.”
Sorry Sparky. it was your side that bought him up before and it was your side that claimed again today he answers Kathy’s questions.
Now get back to the meditating on the everything out nothing white fairy your high priest has revealed to you
ooooommmmm………ooooommmmm
cause the hand waving aint working.
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Ruth, cont..
“The truth of the matter is, we don’t know. None of us knows. Not you, not me, not arch. We don’t know! You say you have an explanation. Fine. That’s ok. Really it is.”
@Mike,.. yes, this whole blog is nothing but comedy..
Ruth just repeated basically what I typed to her… she tells me it’s “ok” to not know.. exactly what I just stated, IN CAPS, to her.. with the “really” and exclamation mark accents and everything.. this is all a joke.. no one here is interested in “FINDING TRUTH”.
There is a serious lack of maturity on this blog.
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