You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
William, you said:
“you should know that many “liberals” are devout Christians and many “conservatives” are steadfast atheists… it’s comments like this that discredit you further because it’s an absurd and baseless generalization. ”
I’m fully aware that many liberals call themselves Christians William and visa versa. And I’ve addressed this already. There is no “discrediting”.. only your lack of awareness.
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“Sorry Sparky. it was your side that bought him up before and it was your side that claimed again today he answers Kathy’s questions.” – mike
sorry mike, I dont have a side and I am certainly not a disciple of krauss…
but without going through all that again, let’s say you’re right, AGAIN, and there was a creator…
how does that lead to jesus?
kathy?
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“However, all schools that teach Creationism should be forced to close”
Well you make good on that campaign promise since you have the majority and the votes……oh wait.
“barbaric practices such as infant circumcision for religious reasons should be outlawed.”
Barbaric I TELL YOU!!
http://www.webmd.com/sexual-conditions/guide/circumcision
ooops ummmm. well errr ….
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“I’m fully aware that many liberals call themselves Christians William and visa versa. And I’ve addressed this already. There is no “discrediting”.. only your lack of awareness.” – kathy
well,, I wouldnt say “only” there’s also your lack of understanding those terms and continuing to use moot generalizations after the reasons why this can get confusing has already been addressed.
can you not make a biblical point without saying liberal?
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“but without going through all that again, let’s say you’re right, AGAIN, and there was a creator…
how does that lead to jesus?”
So umm like you said rather than “going through all that again” are you saying you are conceding a creator? Or we would be right to say you are just playing a game that would in end up “going through all that again”?
Inquiring minds want to know the level of your honesty then we can proceed.
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Ruth just repeated basically what I typed to her… she tells me it’s “ok” to not know.. exactly what I just stated, IN CAPS, to her.. with the “really” and exclamation mark accents and everything.. this is all a joke.. no one here is interested in “FINDING TRUTH”.
There is a serious lack of maturity on this blog.
My, goodness. It’s what I’ve been saying all along. I don’t know. I’m not sure how you missed that one.
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William’s comment:
william
July 18, 2014 at 8:11 am
“William, while many religions can claim “martyrs”.. it doesn’t end there, even though your mind doesn’t want to accept this.. it’s a fundamental aspect of evidence.. the details!.. the specifics!..” – kathy
@kathy,
I agree, that;s why I think it’s you who’s not understanding the point. I’m saying, let’s speak about the specifics, the details.”
Oh really? Is that what YOU’RE doing William? .. if you say so. It’s incredible how disingenuous you people are.
“And not all martyrs in other religions are suicide bombers. Even Islam has martyrs that werent murders too – so the point still remains.”
LOL… no, no it doesn’t still remain William. You conveniently forget that we are WEIGHING the evidence… Islam’s “martyrs” overall kill others and themselves. Thanks for yet MORE proof of the lack of objectivity of liberals.
“Would you accept people as true Christians that murdered poeple in the name of christ? surely not. Similarly, there are those of other religions (even islam) who would mainatian that those who murder for their religion, are not truly followers of said religion.”
No kidding. Why are you giving me my point back to me as if it’s your own??
“So martydom is not evidence of truthfulness, but only devotion. So let’s discuss your details instead.”
Wrong again, martyrdom based on the details, that you just tried to pretend to be about, can be VERY compelling evidence to support the truth of the claims. And the martyrs for the God of Christianity offer the only real evidence that should be considered.. overall, the others offer nothing by comparison.
This entire comment by you, William, was a joke. You, just like Ruth and Arch and Nate have resorted to dishonesty and childishness in trying to defend your failed beliefs. You all are a complete waste of time.
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“So umm like you said rather than “going through all that again” are you saying you are conceding a creator? Or we would be right to say you are just playing a game that would in end up “going through all that again”?” – mike
I’m conceding that i dont know what happened in the beginning or if there were a beginning and that i am not ruling out a creator. was it really that hard to understand are you trying your best to sidestep the question again?
I am also saying that since I dont know, that i wont argue that point, and then i am asking, we assume (or believe if you like this better) there was a creator, then how do we get from a creator or creators to jesus?
I think this has been asked before…
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“well,, I wouldnt say “only” there’s also your lack of understanding those terms and continuing to use moot generalizations after the reasons why this can get confusing has already been addressed.
can you not make a biblical point without saying liberal? ”
Yes I can.. but why would I avoid the truth? So you all can feel better? Sorry, not interested in
coddling your sad pride and egos.
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kathy, wow.
“Oh really? Is that what YOU’RE doing William? .. if you say so. It’s incredible how disingenuous you people are.” – kathy
yes, that was what i have been doing, and how is that disingenuous?
Okay, you;re saying the martyrs who died peacefuly in islam are discounted because you say most die as suicide bombers…. okay…
same question then, but insert Buddhists… does that help you understand?
and with christianity, what type? does the type of christian matter, or do only martyrs of your denomination count? like catholics?
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@MIke
Hey, D’head, how’s your Friday?
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“Yes I can.. but why would I avoid the truth? So you all can feel better? Sorry, not interested in
coddling your sad pride and egos.” – kathy
the truth? that’s an interesting thing to call it, but you go right ahead you uneducated pharisee. you stiff necked brood of vipers. You maiden of white washed tombs.
say, jezebel, is truth simply a product of your decoration and observation, or is that your opinion – as ridiculous and worthless as it may be?
nah, i’m joking… calling “truth” wasnt interesting.
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“Note: Some studies show that good hygiene can help prevent certain problems with the penis, including infections and swelling, even if the penis is not circumcised. In addition, using a condom during sex will help prevent STDs and other infections.”
Common sense. But no — let’s snip off a very sensitive part of male’s sexual organ.
Mike — that note came from the article you posted. How hard is it for you to teach your boys to keep their penis clean? You know, like washing their hands before they urinate. *gasp* what a concept. Every man I’ve known (not in a biblical sense 😛 ) who wasn’t circumcised didn’t have problems. Those in countries where they treat their women like chit, like lots of rape, tend to have the most problems with HIV/AIDS because the woman is not lubricated enough and the penis tares in that area.
If you can’t keep it clean or keep it covered, or get a woman hot, get it snipped, right? 😉
So your god eff up on the original male model, eh? Why did “he” create your penis to be, well, you know, un-snipped in the first place, or are you going to blame that on sin. The foreskin magically grew when Adam sinned?
American Academy of Pediatrics:
Studies have concluded that circumcised infants have a slightly lower risk of urinary tract infections, although these are not common in boys and occur less often in circumcised boys mostly in the first year of life. Neonatal circumcision also provides some protection from penile cancer, a very rare condition.
Some research also suggests a reduced likelihood of developing sexually transmitted diseases and HIV infections in circumcised men, and possibly a reduced risk for cervical cancer in female partners of circumcised men. However, while there are potential medical benefits, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision of all boys.” (6/24/2014)
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kathy, look, I wasnt being serious saying those things, in case it wasnt clear.
The point is, I can call you names and think I’m justified because I think it’s accurate and you can call me names and feel justified because you think it’s accurate.
What does that accomplish? are you more receptive of what i say if i call you a bitterly ignorant asshole twat? probably not.
Remember proverbs 15:1. It’s a passage we should all try our best to follow, because how we say something really does effect what we say and how it’s heard. That’s the truth.
Now, i think we stray from time to time off topic.
let;s discuss the bible, pros and cons, as honestly as we both can. surely, we can agree to that.
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“What does that accomplish? are you more receptive of what i say if i call you a bitterly ignorant asshole twat? probably not.”
LMAO
William, I like you. 😀
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“I’m conceding that i dont know what happened in the beginning or if there were a beginning and that i am not ruling out a creator. was it really that hard to understand are you trying your best to sidestep the question again?”
Well First things first
A) This aint Jeopardy and your name ain’t Trebek. I’ve answered many of your questions and your history is pretty clear. You’ve wiggled and wormed your way (or at least tried to) out of any fact that you didn’t like . When you are asked a question it s usually well errr …”i dunno” and “I dunno is a perfectly legit answer” (because I dunno suits you and is an escape hatch from questions that would tend to destroy your premise).
B) How do we not end up rehashing the same things again when we primarily know of Christ through the Bible and you have already concluded regardless of evidence to the contrary that it is error filled and full of contradictions? Stop begging to waste peoples times with your garbage that you are willing to accept or hear out anything in regard to the NT. Try selling that to some newbie to this blog and how things work around here
C) the next step would be to look a prophecies but so far we’ve seen twists and ducks and whines about why israel is not a nation again, fences are really walls and begs that if everything is not fulfilled the nothing is
So stop wasting my and Kathy’s time with your bogus junk. I have been around long enough to see right through you. You are trying to insulate yourself form answering anything with this weak easy to see through “I don;t know if there was a beginning I dunno what happened ” mantra so that you can critique any position we put up without having to have your own position questioned.
Its not an honest form of debate and you are not an honest debater and thats why the discussion never gets further.
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I’m not even sure why circumcision is brought up… I thought the oldest record of it was in Egypt, not the bible.
So even if there were numerous benefits for it, the fact that the Egyptians were doing before the jews could indicate that men didn’t need god telling them what to do after all – like eye for an eye, never render evil for evil, etc…
but even so, the bible states it was to be done as a covenant between god and jew, not because it provided sexual or medical benefits – and the NT says it doesn’t matter anyways… and today, more and more people seem against it, though I dont have any stats nor do i care enough to look them up.
my wanker was cut long ago – and there’s nothing i can do about it now.
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My side hurts.
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William, you said:
“let;s discuss the bible, pros and cons, as honestly as we both can. surely, we can agree to that.”
Sure, after we settle the points already put forth. Do you still feel that Christian martyrdom is the “same” as any other? You said:
“same question then, but insert Buddhists… does that help you understand?”
Understand what William? How does martyrs for Buddhism compare to Christianity?
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“So stop wasting my and Kathy’s time with your bogus junk. I have been around long enough to see right through you. You are trying to insulate yourself form answering anything with this weak easy to see through “I don;t know if there was a beginning I dunno what happened ” mantra so that you can critique any position we put up without having to have your own position questioned.” – mike
so, you’re still not going to answer it.
i suggest you continually avoid answering because you realize it is one enormous leap. and i am saying that you wrote all that, just to create a smoke screen so you could once again and try to evade the answer.
and that’s fine. “I dont know” is a an answer when you honestly dont know. You see, mike, claiming to know something for certain when you don’t is not on dishonest, but it rarely fools people.
and you shouldnt imply that you’ve answered this question. It’s just a bad lie. I’ve asked it more times than i can remember, and this dodge is the closest you’ve come so far.
But that’s okay. You’re man jesus, whom you know of because several dudes claimed he was god an rose from the dead isnt proven by “supernatural” creation any more than zeus is.
But how is my question not honest? just because you cant show how to get from creation or beginning to jesus with your book of claims? come now, this is dishonest.
it’s funny how you and kathy are somehow stuck in a perpetual opposites day… “ignorant” “liar” “dishonest” “no one answers me” “I’ve answered everything and given such good evidence..”
you two are insane, and i think it’s a brilliant act. It has me coming back just to see what crazy stuff you’ll come up with next.
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“Common sense. But no — let’s snip off a very sensitive part of male’s sexual organ.”
ROFL….Neuro is now going to tell me about having a penis. Apparently one of her online Google studies gave her greater insight than my having one could ever give.
HAHAHAHAHA. Internet specialists.
My son has no memory of his circumcision and it is no great trauma. The abject stupidity of you people is that you will cry how its painful to the child (not that much) and how caring you are more than religious people traumatizing their children but rewind the life of the same child a few months and you are generally in favor not of just removing the foreskin of the boy but killing him, dismembering him and tossing him into a bag
Please spare me your fake superiority in caring for the young. You go there and it will go to abortion and it will get really real in here.
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“Understand what William? How does martyrs for Buddhism compare to Christianity?” – kathy
they compare becuase people gave their lives for their beliefs.
how do they differ?
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@Kathy
WHAT Christian martyrdom?
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Religion is a lot like circumcision…
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