You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
“Those people have no excuse for murdering others ‘in the name of their god’.
Attempting to compare that with the events surrounding our Creator and how He established Himself with His creation is a fail. – you really are certifiable, aren’t you. I feel so sorry for your daughter; it’s obviously it’s too late for you. If she’s smart, she’ll run as far, and as fast, and as soon as she can.
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“I agree—get ‘em while their young is, was, and always will be the golden rule of indoctrination. “Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.”
ROFL….not to disturb the fantasy land of Ron and the Nuerotic one but Missionaries have been bringing ADULTS to Christ by the millions for years and if you ever seen a Billy Graham outreach it was mostly adults that came forward.
okay now back to your fantasy land cherry picking studies that support your cause. Sorry to interrupt your endorphin high. )
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Here’s the compelling evidence I require, Kathy:
1. Show us your resurrected messiah. (OGTFO)
2. Fulfill the promise Jesus made in Mark 16:17-18 about true believers being able to heal the sick.
… or admit that:
1) Your god doesn’t exist
2) Jesus and/or his followers LIED
3) You are not a True Christian™
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Say what you will Mike, bottom line is that you judge other people for not being a real Christians, but you claim you are and on what basis? There is zero evidence that Jesus was God; zero evidence that Yahweh was God and zero evidence that the bible is the word of any creator. Zip, notta.
Again, show us the goods besides those cushy “feelings” you get due to years and years of indoctrination.
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Neuro, you are wrong.. there is lots of evidence for the God of the Bible being your Creator.
Stating there isn’t won’t make that evidence go away.
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Arch, you’re frustrated because you have no valid arguments… don’t feel too bad… anyone would feel frustrated in your position.. (and every atheist does).
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“he results suggest that exposure to religious ideas has a powerful impact on children’s differentiation between reality and fiction, not just for religious stories but also for fantastical stories.”
Ron, thank you for those studies. My best friend is from Denmark. He was never raised in a religious environment, and neither are most people in Denmark religious. They just register as Christians because they get to use the church for free when they get married. LOL 😉
Neither my friend and none of his friends or family members have ever believed in a god. Most Danes scoff at the talk of god.
But I can tell you, and you will probably agree and may have experienced this too; I was lied to when I was a Christian, that nonbelievers were evil, non-caring, and couldn’t be trusted. They are some of the finest people I’ve ever met.
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When God was Pro-Choice and Why He Changed His Mind
From Abortion: an ecumenical study document (quoted in the above article):
Because Christ calls us to affirm the freedom of persons and the sanctity of life, we recognize that abortion should be a matter of personal decision.
–American Baptist Churches
The ALC recognizes the freedom and responsibility of individuals to make their own choices in light of the best information available to them and their understanding of God’s will for their lives, whether those choices be in regard to family planning or any other life situations.
–American Lutheran Church
The Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) believes that the mother has an overwhelming stake in her own pregnancy, and to be forced to give birth to a child against her will is a peculiarly personal violation of her freedom . . . . The fetus is seen as a potential person, but not fully a person in the same developed sense in which the mother is a person with an ability to think, to feel, to make decisions, and choices concerning her own life. . . . That prior right however, carries with it a tremendous responsibility, for human life, even potential human life is valued.
–Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
Abortion should be accepted as an option only where all other possible alternatives will lead to greater destruction of human life and spirit. . . . We support persons who, after prayer and counseling, believe abortion is the least destructive alternative available to them, that they may make their decision openly, honestly, without the suffering imposed by an uncompromising community.
–Church of the Brethren
Christians have a responsibility to limit the size of their families and to practice responsible birth control. . . . .where there is substantial reason to believe that the child would be deformed in mind or body, or where the pregnancy has resulted from rape or incest . . . termination of pregnancy is permissible.
–Episcopal Church
The status of the fetus is the key issue. That status is affected by consideration of the fact that it is the organic beginning of human life. Further, its status is defined by its stage of development, its state of well-being, and its prospects for a meaningful life after its birth.
–Lutheran Church in America
Human life develops on a continuum from conception to birth. At some point it may be regarded as more “personal” and higher in “quality.” At some undesignated time, the value of this life may actually outweigh competing factors; e.g., the vocational and social objectives of the family, etc.
–United Church of Christ
Our belief in the sanctity of unborn human life makes us reluctant to approve abortion. But we are equally bound to respect the sacredness of the life and well-being of the mother, for whom devastating damage may result from an unacceptable pregnancy. In continuity with past Christian teaching, we recognize tragic conflicts of life with life that may justify abortion.
–United Methodist Church
The artificial or induced termination of pregnancy is a matter of the careful ethical decision of the patient, her physician, and her pastor or other counselor and therefore should not be restricted by law . . .
–United Presbyterian Church
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Sounds like you’re projecting again, Kathy – I’m not frustrated at all, because I don’t have some invisible magic man looking over my shoulder, watching everything I do.
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“In 2008, an estimated 6,578,000 pregnancies resulted in 4,248,000 live births, 1,212,000 induced abortions, and 1,118,000 fetal losses.”
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22970648
Now factor in the millions dying from disease and malnutrition, and Lord Genocide (assuming it exits) becomes the world’s number one abortionist and baby killer—bar none.
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I COULD have said, Carmen, that she could hardly have a 6-year old daughter and still be in your 9th grade class, but then I realized that with her mentality, yeah, she really could.
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“Neuro, you are wrong.. there is lots of evidence for the God of the Bible being your Creator.”
Kathy, you have yet to prove anything except what you “feel”. You were most likely wired as a child to believe in the Christian god, and that the bible was the word of god. It is very difficult to atrophy (prune) those neural networks when they have been reinforced for years, and especially when you are indoctrinated at a certain age of brain development. That’s why it is so difficult for those of us who were indoctrinated to go through a deconversion. When we became adults, we continue self-programming by what we we were programmed with in childhood.
You literally have a physical neurochemical withdrawal when going through a deconversion, and many simply get past that. The more religious you were/are the greater the withdrawal. Neuropharmacological studies show that dopamine (neurochemical reward) plays a major role in religious activity. Oxytocin and vasopressin are also reward neurotransmitters that are involved with religious belief because of the warm, fuzzy attachment you feel with your invisible god. These attachment/bonding neurotransmitters deactivate neural circuity to areas of the brain associated with critical judgement. Christianity had a brilliant strategy by using bonding/attachment phrases that are normally associated with a mother and child and a husband and wife, so that you would neurologically (get rewarded to) bond to your bridegroom Jesus and daddy god, Yahweh. These neurtransmitters blind you to fully realizing the atrocities in your bible, or if you do realize them you may justify them because your god can do what ever the hell he wants..
You are blinded by your religious belief. Been there, done that. Anyone who was truly devoted, as many here were, know how hard it was to break free from the indoctrination. So it doesn’t surprise me in the least that you are in deep and can’t see what we see.
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“Say what you will Mike, bottom line is that you judge other people for not being a real Christians, but you claim you are and on what basis?”
You are torpedoing your whole narrative. If you are claiming that everyone who identifies themselves as being protestant is a Christian then you know so little about Christianity it has become dubious that either you or any of your partners were Christians. Good night. there are people who claim to be catholic just because their parents are.There are people who hold that they were born protestant for the same reason
Get a clue. Buy it. burrow it. You have no idea what you are talking about but SWEAR you do.
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“You are blinded by your religious belief. Been there, done that. Anyone who was truly devoted, as many here were, know how hard it was to break free from the indoctrination. ”
You broke free of nothing. You created a narrative for yourself that gave an explanation for some dark times and gave you a therapeutic scapegoat. I see with you but you just switched one dogma for another.
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@Kathy cont:
The power of fear and guilt techniques used in indoctrination:
“In America, during the eighteenth century, Christian revivalism was spreading. Jonathan Edwards, a Christian preacher, philosopher, and theologian was widely acknowledged to be America’s most important and original philosophical theologian. Edwards was considered one of America’s greatest intellectuals and played a major role in the 1st Great Awakening. He was the grandfather of Aaron Burr, the third Vice President of the United States.
Edwards oversaw some of the first revivals in 1733–35 at his church in Northampton, Massachusetts. He delivered the sermon “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God“. Edwards took the opportunity for study the process of conversion in all its phases and varieties, and he recorded his observations in “A Faithful Narrative of the Surprising Work of God in the Conversion of Many Hundred Souls in Northampton” (1737). He writes: “Even though this change has occurred, many Christians have no imagination that they are now converted.”
Meaning they didn’t realize they had been powerfully indoctrinated.
“A year later, he published “Discourses on Various Important Subjects”, the five sermons which had proved most effective in the revival, and of these, none was so immediately effective as that in the “Justice of God in the Damnation of Sinners,”
Sources state that he accidentally discovered the conversion techniques during a religious crusade in 1735 in Northampton, Massachusetts. By inducing guilt and acute apprehension and by increasing the tension, the “sinners” attending his revival meetings would break down and completely submit.
“Charles J. Finney was another Christian revivalist who used the same techniques four years later in mass religious conversions in New York. The techniques are still being used today by Christian revivalists, cults, human-potential trainings, some business rallies, and the United States Armed Services.”
Fundamentalists/evangelical preachers still uses these techniques today, and have also perfected the art of getting you into a suggestive brain wave state via selective music and voice roll, which is why it’s so damn hard to break away. Sources available here
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Yes, Ron – exactly. “Lord Genocide. . . becomes the world’s number one abortionist and baby killer” I have no idea where religious fanatics get the idea that god is pro-life. Talk about creating a narrative. . ..
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“You broke free of nothing. You created a narrative for yourself that gave an explanation for some dark times and gave you a therapeutic scapegoat. I see with you but you just switched one dogma for another.”
Nope. Mike, it is you who has been indoctrinated. You can’t see. Why? Because you are indoctrinated — programmed and with deactivated neural circuity. You keep programming yourself and reinforcing those neural networks every time you open your bible, and every time you attend church, and every time you pray, and every time you have a god thought, and every time you watch a televangelist on TV.
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“You literally have a physical neurochemical withdrawal when going through a deconversion, and many simply get past that. The more religious you were/are the greater the withdrawal. Neuropharmacological studies show that dopamine (neurochemical reward) plays a major role in religious activity.”
Neuro you just don’t get it. You are used to your little wordpress crew that buys into you being some expert in Neuroscience. It may feed your ego but I have enough background to know you are nothing but someone who goes around doing Google searches and trying to be a psuedo scientist online
They buy it of you…Sorry we don’t.
“Neuropharmacological studies show that dopamine (neurochemical reward) plays a major role in religious activity.”
Dopamine is involved in a lot of pleasurable activities you nit. 🙂 lol. so sometimes religious activity is pleasing. Other times its not so nice knowing you a re a sinner. You go on about this like the psuedo scientist you are ad think you are making these great points.
“Oxytocin and vasopressin are also reward neurotransmitters that are involved with religious belief because of the warm, fuzzy attachment you feel with your invisible god’
and with the warm fuzzy feeling thinking you are right and an expert on what you are not while religious people are wrong. Oh no but don’t look now but the facts our bodies are wired to give us pleasure at times we worship god means he doesn’t exist…..lol
” These attachment/bonding neurotransmitters deactivate neural circuity to areas of the brain associated with critical judgement”
Apparently religious feelings are not the only thing that can deactivate them 😉
“These neurotransmitters blind you to fully realizing the atrocities in your bible, or if you do realize them you may justify them because your god can do what ever the hell he wants..
You are blinded by your religious belief.”
How can you be so silly? Almost all the founders of science had religious beliefs and were some of the smartest people to have lived. Just come clean. Its totally understandable. your own neurotransmitters were affected by grief and depressing circumstances so you created a narrative to combat it for emotional reasons
I mean since we are diagnosing mental states over the internets which no professional (who isn’t a quack) would never try and do.
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“Nope. Mike, it is you who has been indoctrinated. You can’t see. Why? Because you are indoctrinated — programmed and with deactivated neural circuity. You keep programming yourself and reinforcing those neural networks every time you open your bible, and every time you attend church, and every time you pray, and every time you have a god thought, and every time you watch a televangelist on TV.”
and you program yours every time you desperately pretend you are an internet trained neuroscientist. ROFL.
See? Neuro you are giving me an endorphin rush even without worshipping God. Reading you would shut down any neurotransmitter but ummmm… I am not feeling like you are God.
Go figure . thesis of the experiment debunked.
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Mike, your rhetoric is no different than all the other indoctrinated fundamentalist. You all say we weren’t “really” Christians. But you are simply wrong. I was a Christian for 40 years, and very devout for at least 20. With one bible, I had it rebound 3 times because I had many notes in it, and I read my bible so much that the pages were coming out. I owned 25 translations of the bible and every study help I could get my hands on. I was in church every time the doors were open. I served on church boards, I was a Sunday school teacher, I was the director of music, and involved in nearly every activity the churches had going on.
You are absolutely wrong when you try to suggest that I wasn’t a committed Christian with a profound love for the god of my culture, which was Christianity.
So don’t even start with that nonsense. Others here were also totally “sold out”.
Mike — you are indoctrinated — programmed — wired. They got you good and now you can’t seem to get free. You are one of the most closed-minded people I have ever met, and I doubt very seriously if you will ever come off the tit.
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“Here’s the compelling evidence I require, Kathy:”
Ron…hate to break to ya little fella but its you….so no one cares what your requirements are
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“Mike, your rhetoric is no different than all the other indoctrinated fundamentalist. You all say we weren’t “really” Christians. But you are simply wrong. I was a Christian for 40 years, and very devout for at least 20. With one bible, I had it rebound 3 times because I had many notes in it, and I read my bible so much that the pages were coming out. I owned 25 translations of the bible and every study help I could get my hands on.”
and yet with all of that you never learned that someone claiming to be a protestant was not necessarily a christian. Were these like Cliff note translations????
“I was in church every time the doors were open. I served on church boards, I was a Sunday school teacher, I was the director of music, and involved in nearly every activity the churches had going on.”
and these cliff note translations taught you activity in the church was what made you a christian too?
“You are absolutely wrong when you try to suggest that I wasn’t a committed Christian with a profound love for the god of my culture, which was Christianity.”
VOILA… there it is. I can know a real Christian any time they start talking about God. for all your trying to convince me with your past activity and alleged devotion I have never heard a christian refer to their god as the god of their culture. So Christianity was your culture and God was just a fixture in that culture.
Thats pretty honest but for the same reason utterly unconvincing.
“So don’t even start with that nonsense. Others here were also totally “sold out”.”
Call it what you will but I am under no obligation to obey your command and neither will you shush or hush me that someone who was a christian wouldn’t know that identifying as a protestant and /or Catholic doesn’t make you a Christian. Seriously? You have got to be trying to kid me ….but its not working.
Sold out?
that must have been one cheap yard sale.
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“Oh no but don’t look now but the facts our bodies are wired to give us pleasure at times we worship god means he doesn’t exist…..lol”
Mike I don’t expect you to get it. It took me years to learn about all this. Religion hijacked our reward system. Your brilliant con-artist founding fathers of authoritarian religion, called Christianity, incorporated specific words and phrases that are associated with a mother and child, and a husband and wife. Suck and nurse, milk of the word, birth, born again, bosom, Jesus as the bridegroom, the church as the bride, etc. Isaiah 60:16 states: “You shall suck the milk of nations; you shall nurse at the breast of kings.” 1 Peter 2:2 states: “Like newborn babies crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation,”
Catholic nuns wear a wedding band to signify that they are married to Jesus. When I was a kid going through First Holy Communion, the girls dressed like child brides during the ceremony. Not only does Jesus represent a caring husband but he’s also representative of a protective, nurturing mother. So does the Yahweh god but only to those who submit and obey. But they brought Jesus into the mix and told you that your faith in the unseen was righteous.
Brilliant!! It worked. Your hooked. It’s all about faith. But there is zero evidence that your god is a God.
When you attach to your god of your culture, like a child and mother attach to each other and a husband and wife attach to each other, these chemicals will be released and they will deactivate neural circuitry so that you become blinded to seeing things in your children or partner. This is for the purpose of keeping the mothers and fathers together long enough to ensure the survival of the species, and not toss the kid in the fire when he/she’s screaming 24/7. They bond to the child and themselves to ensure the survival of our species. You wouldn’t believe in your god if you didn’t get rewarded for it. You even get rewarded for submitting and even for suffering if you think you are going to get acknowledged by the big daddy in the sky. People who get too much dopamine can become mentally ill (and addicted) and in hyper-religious people the ventromedial dopaminergic systems are highly activated and exaggerated.
But for many people — most — there is an initial honeymoon period you feel when you get “born again”. If you went through it you know what i”m talking about. That will wane after a while, just like what happens between husbands and wives or lovers. The dopamine levels plunge and often so does the oxytocin and vasopressin. So then you say “I don’t “feel” as close to the lord as I used to, you will read more of your bible and pray more, and go through self-reflection to see if there is any “sin” etc. You may go to church more, do more religious activities because you want to please god and hope you can get those fuzzy wuzzy (honeymoon) feelings back again.
All the while — you are reinforcing those neural networks of belief.
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Don’t expect him to listen to a word you’re saying, Neuro, but there ARE others out there who might.
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“I have never heard a christian refer to their god as the god of their culture. So Christianity was your culture and God was just a fixture in that culture.”
I pointed that out, Mike, because you are so sure that your cultural god is the God. My point is that had you been born in India you would probably be worshiping the Monkey God, or the many other gods, or if you had been born in Saudi Arabia, you would be worshiping Allah.
You see how that works? But you apparently think you are so special because you have the right god — Yahweh — the war god worshiped during the Bronze/Iron Age in a small area of the world.
“all it what you will but I am under no obligation to obey your command and neither will you shush or hush me that someone who was a christian wouldn’t know that identifying as a protestant and /or Catholic doesn’t make you a Christian. Seriously?”
As Protestants and Catholics we were taught that having a personal relationship does, and I did. But it was once sided. It required faith to have that one-sided relationship. Took me years to figure that out. They are superb con-artist. $$$
@Arch — I know. 😀
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