You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
Hayden, apparently you’ve not been keeping up with this thread as Carmen explained why she was back. And if I recall correctly, you said that you were no longer going to read Mike’s or Kathy’s comments, nor were you planning on commenting in this post.
And about your above comment — I hope you were jesting. Like Ark mentioned, it’s hard to get a straight answer out of you. Check out the graphic in the article “Factors in Childhood Indoctrination in Fundamentalist Christianity”.
—————
“In effect, the indoctrination of a child with immature cognitive abilities in the helpless context of a family is an abuse of power. The child has no perspective and no choice but to cooperate in order to survive. The messages are received and embedded in the brain while certain areas of brain development are repressed through lack of stimulation, chief of which is critical thinking. This, combined with accepting the teaching that one is unable to trust one’s own thoughts, and the abject fear of terrifying consequences, completes the trap. Even as the child gets older, there are social forces in place to enforce these dynamics and the circular reasoning can continue on, making the child feel highly disturbed but not have any idea why.
The typical pattern is for a person to keep trying harder to make the religion work because the doctrine always makes the individual at fault. Many describe a pattern of highs and extreme lows much like the mind-twisting cycle of abuse in domestic violence. The victim is always to blame and escape is extremely difficult because there is periodic emotional relief but no overall perspective.”
http://journeyfree.org/childhood-religious-indoctrination/
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NueroNotes, No I was serious about the video everyone was upset about. The one with the children crying and singing. The children laid out on the floor. I was explaining what goes on at those meetings.
What abuse are you seeing in that video?
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Hayden, were you ever told at these camps that you were a sinner? That Jesus died because of your sins? Were you ever told at camp that hell was real and if you didn’t give your life to Jesus that was where you were going? Do your children act this way when you tell them that you love them…raise their hands in the air, crying “Daddy, Daddy”?
I have seen this personally at the camps for which you speak, and I’m sure that if Charity is reading this (who was raised a fundamentalists) she will attest to this as well.
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Hayden, I was a member of the A of G for many years right next door to your state. I know these children were put on huge guilt trips about being sinners. Please don’t try and sugar coat this.
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Yeah, I understand that argument but when that video was posted it was all about abuse. I assumed because the children were crying and I wanted to explain. Are you saying this is really just the argument that children shouldn’t be indoctrinated at all? I can understand that argument.
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Sorry was posting when you put up your last post. Not sugar coating anything. I’m talking about the retreats. Guilt wasn’t done at ours because it would be counter productive to what we were trying to do that weekend. That is not to say Guilt was not used at many of the other services. But when you are trying to move the spirit I guess they “shelve” guilt for the weekend.
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@Hayden.
ANY retreat that has religion as its premise is child abuse. No exceptions. Period.
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Hayden, I will have to disagree with you about there not being messages of sin and surrender at these camps. In order to “move the spirit” you have to be completely submissive and acknowledged that you are unworthy without Jesus.
Do your children start crying “tears of joy” and raising their hands in the air when you all dance around the house? What is happening to these children is that they’ve been put into an altered state of consciousness (a very suggestive state) and fundamentalists know exactly the kind of music and environment to create in order to do this. Did you look at the other video of a secular camp? Those children are having a blast. No tears, but lots of fun and laughter.
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Hayden @ July 21/14 6:49 a.m.
“[…] Guilt wasn’t done at ours because it would be counter productive to what we were trying to do that weekend. That is not to say Guilt was not used at many of the other services. But when you are trying to move the spirit I guess they “shelve” guilt for the weekend.”
Zoe responding
Giving some thought to your comment here Hayden.
I don’t think one can isolate one from the other, the services from the retreat. The retreat from the services. They are all built on the same continuum. Children &/or adults for that matter carry the services on guilt into the retreat. They’ve heard it, they remember it, they feel it, right into the retreat. Tears of joy? Sure. Why not? It’s an incredible relief for them. Does that mean it can’t be abusive?
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“Tears of joy? Sure. Why not? It’s an incredible relief for them.”
Zoe, you make a valid point, and from the article I shared:
“Many describe a pattern of highs and extreme lows much like the mind-twisting cycle of abuse in domestic violence. The victim is always to blame and escape is extremely difficult because there is periodic emotional relief…”
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“Q: Where did Jesus tell follower to pray?
A: In private. ”
LOL Ron still trying to teach Bible without knowing it by quote mining. never an improvement on this blog
P.S. Multiple examples of public prayer in the Bible.
Long live quote mining 🙂 🙂
But it won’t change votes so sorry
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As usual, contradiction after contraction. Only those whose brains are not effed up by indoctrination can see it.
*waves to my favorite troll*
Welcome back. 😈
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Maybe not in “droves” but the more acceptable homosexuality is, the more it will grow. And that will harm society and ultimately the future of humanity will be threatened.
The more acceptable homosexuality is the more people will be comfortable being themselves. How will it make homosexuality grow? It might make more people that already are homosexual unafraid to publicly be who they are, but it won’t make more people gay. Either you are gay or you are not.
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“ANY retreat that has religion as its premise is child abuse. No exceptions. Period.”
I think you guys should really start preaching this. I mean with all these kids being mercilessly abused you should be faaaaar more vocal about it. Don’t you care about these kids enough? Get sam Harris, Dawkin’s, Krauss et al and lead the charge. You have to rescue them or what kind of people are you? Get on TV, lobby politicians and tell them essentially religion is child abuse.
DON’T TAKE NON-ACTION FOR AN ANSWER
Scream and scream loud. Doing what is right is Noble and good.
Why am I up for you doing it?
Because it will push an atheist presidency off for about another hundred years or two 🙂 🙂
Because when they see that what you really want to do is make laws to prohibit the exercise of religion they’ll know what hypocrites you are and you won’t be voted for dog catcher much less any position of power.
get it done. DON’T just argue about it on a blog with what? maybe ten regular participants? Take this thing PUBLIC
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I agree, Ruth, and they have been very misinformed that homosexuality will destroy families. It’s hate mongering because they’ve been indoctrinated. The studies show otherwise. But Kathy, being extremely closed-minded about studies for fear they are “liberal”, will deny the results.
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2458/14/635/abstract
Results
Children in same-sex parent families had higher scores on measures of general behavior, general health and family cohesion compared to population normative data. There were no significant differences between the two groups for all other scale scores.
Conclusions
Australian children with same-sex attracted parents score higher than population samples on a number of parent-reported measures of child health.
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In another study, published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, researchers at Bar-Ilan University in Israel compared the brain scans of new moms, new straight dads, and new gay dads, and found that the gay dads developed brain patterns that resemble both mothers and fathers.
In the study, the mothers, who played a primary caregiver role for their children, demonstrated heightened activity in their brain’s emotion-processing regions when watching their children. The straight fathers, playing a traditional secondary parenting role, exhibited increased cognitive activity in the brain, demonstrating awareness of what their children’s cries and cues were trying to communicate. But the gay fathers demonstrated both the mothers’ emotional and fathers’ cognitive brain activity, suggesting that they were, at least according to their brains, operating like both mothers and fathers.
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@Hayden
“Anybody know where there is an Assembly of God in Austin?”
No, but I know a fantastic non believer in your area named Matt. He’s married and has four beautiful kids. Matt reminds me of Nate. Both are kind, have an extensive religious background and both have deconverted within the past few years.
http://jerichobrisance.com/
(Hello Nate! Hope you and yours had a great weekend.)
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“As usual, contradiction after contraction. Only those whose brains are not effed up by indoctrination can see it.
LOl I knew that would be the next claim. almost included it in my last post because I know how your brains have been rewired by hate and confusion. Jesus says don’t pray in public for the purpose of being seen. Only a nit would think that passage prohibits public prayer
But then when it comes to nits there are no shortage on this blog who…ahem….qualify. 🙂
So carry on! lol
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Do try and do better research Neurotic one
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jun/10/study-suggests-risks-from-same-sex-parenting/
Fact is this subject is too charged to claim studies as proving this or that. Researchers are likely not to publish negative reports for fear of being labeled homophobic but a proven above some have plowed on regardless.
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Mike, if you are right, and us “heathens” get slaughtered in the end for having critical thinking skills and not bowing done to your god, and the birds gorge on our flesh (as noted in Revelations 19), than I suppose you and Jesus will be be tight as ticks when he exhibits the wrath of his Yahweh father.
Take Nate’s advise. Read some books.
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Mike, that was back in 2012, and my studies are current. Your article goes on to say:
Michael E. Lamb, a University of Cambridge scholar who has testified on behalf of gay parenting in same-sex marriage lawsuits, asserted in a study this year that neither family structure nor having a biological mother and father in the home is necessary for healthy child adjustment. “[A]vailable evidence is sufficiently conclusive [that] children and adolescents being raised by same-sex parents are as likely to be well-adjusted as children and adolescents with heterosexual parents,” Mr. Lamb concluded in Applied Developmental Science in April.”
This would certainly confirm numerous studies I read regarding brain development and nurture. I would also think that children being raised in gay families living in a society that hates gays would certainly have an effect on children.
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“Anybody know where there is an Assembly of God in Austin?” – no, but I play a pretty mean ocarina, if you’ll hum a few bars, I’ll try to fake it!
My son in Oklahoma just emailed me that a group of 300 Jahovah’s Witlesses just moved, en mass, into a small town just 30 miles from him, a town so small, the inflow just doubled the population. The town is freaked out.
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Oopsie — Mike this is a statement about your fellow fundamentalist Christian buddy who did the study you shared:
Department of Sociology — University of Texas in Austin:
“Like all faculty, Dr. Regnerus has the right to pursue his areas of research and express his point of view. However, Dr. Regnerus’ opinions are his own. They do not reflect the views of the Sociology Department of The University of Texas at Austin. Nor do they reflect the views of the American Sociological Association, which takes the position that the conclusions he draws from his study of gay parenting are fundamentally flawed on conceptual and methodological grounds and that findings from Dr. Regnerus’ work have been cited inappropriately in efforts to diminish the civil rights and legitimacy of LBGTQ partners and their families.””
Emphasis are mine.
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/depts/sociology/news/757
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Smile…Its Masked Mike, everyone’s favorite Evangelical D’head.
Wrong, yet again you Plonker.
Religious freedom, is a given.
Or should be in a secular democracy. It is what freedom is about. And with this comes responsibility.
And, of course, the freedom to face the consequences.
But are we to turn a blind eye when it comes to a child’s freedom?
Well, according to the religious – and ignorant prats such as you Mike, yes.
According to the non-religious, well….they have a different perspective based on the belief that telling lies is immoral and thus indoctrinating kids with the diatribe you espouse is also immoral. ( unless, of course,you or Kathy would lie to offer up verifiable evidence for your claims?…hmmm, yes, thought not…) The faith it is, I guess.
But once a person has reached a position where they are able to make an informed decision then if they should follow a religion ,so be it.
Now, I know you will jump at the chance to demonstrate your Google Abilities and come up with Stats trying to show how many adults are indoctrinated but the harsh reality is, Mike, that without forced indoctrination your piss will religion and every other one too, would quickly dwindle.
Oh, it is happening already, no fear, but it will just take longer than if D’heads like you were forbidden ( or in the case of more the reasonable religious folk, persuaded) from foisting this insidious crap onto children.
The more noise people like you make the more it makes me laugh.
Truly, that people such as you are allowed in the gene pool, even in the shallow end, is mind boggling.
However, it warms the cockles of my heart that even people such as you cannot breed stupidity for ever.
And thank the gods for that, right?
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“Mike, that was back in 2012, and my studies are current. ”
LOL that was two years ago you nit. It aint a game of who published last that settles issues. You ARE funny. Theres contrasting data. That means your case is not proven. Get over it
“Michael E. Lamb, a University of Cambridge scholar who has testified on behalf of gay parenting in same-sex marriage lawsuits, asserted in a study this year that neither family structure nor having a biological mother and father in the home is necessary for healthy child adjustment. “”
Well i guess he better say that if he ever wants to be an expert witness in more cases eh? 🙂
“Oopsie — Mike this is a statement about your fellow fundamentalist Christian buddy who did the study you shared:”
Ooopsie neuro reveals her bias trying desperately post after post to discredit a peer reviewed paper that her shoddy research missed. What a pity neither the paper or the washington times is run by Answers in Genesis – then maybe her desperate posts would work.
But just to keep her busy for the day
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11150-013-9220-y
And since you cite liberals debasing the study you opened the door for this
http://spectator.org/articles/60001/what-about-australian-study-about-same-sex-parenting
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