You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
“Nan said:
“You are soooo wrong on this, Kathy. (Unfortunately), Christianity is the dominant religion here in the U.S., so anyone who doesn’t “believe” is automatically the offender.”
There will always be a “dominant” religion, Nan. But this isn’t violating your rights in any way. Just be thankful it’s not an evil religion like Islam. We can’t make religions disappear from society. If you don’t want to listen to prayer, plug your ears. That’s ridiculous but whatever you need to do to protect your ego. It makes you uncomfortable? So we must ban anything that makes anyone uncomfortable? Not realistic.
“Why should ANY church/religion be tax-exempt? ”
I don’t know.. ask a politician.
“Hobby Lobby. No further comment needed.”
Another confused liberal who thinks that women have a “right” to have their birth control paid for.. wow.. please state where in the Constitution it states this.
Nan, I know it’s the very opposite.. liberals are so incredibly wrong on all your views. It makes me cringe to see how naïve you all are.. and how easily manipulated too.
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Kathy, you know what? If you haven’t read all the HUNDREDS of articles that have been written on this topic, I cannot be bothered spelling it out for you. You just keep listening to the rhetoric from your fundagelical friends and pastor – oh, and people like Bill Keller – because it’s quite clear (and should have been around 1200 comments ago) that you just ain’t listenin’ to any kind of sense. Like I’ve said several times before, your tunnel vision is detrimental to yourself, your daughter, and society. THINK
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“Another would be the liberal ‘hate crimes’ law.. which is designed to take away first amendment rights.” – Please explain what you mean.
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Arch,
“What religious ‘instruction’ Arch??” – how about trying to worm Creationism into school science classes?”
Like evolution as the ONLY explanation has “wormed” it’s way into school? Like that?
“You really HAVEN’T ever read the constitution, have you?”
No, you Arch are the one who doesn’t understand it..
“The First Amendment not only protects freedom OF religion, it protects freedom FROM religion in government – school games, government; religious statues on government property, government;”
Freedom “FROM” religion doesn’t mean you are protected from exposure to it.. it means you are free to not follow any religion. None of your examples are of anyone being forced to follow Christianity.. NONE. If you don’t like being exposed to Christianity, I guess you’ll have to find a country where religion is banned.
“The First Amendment separates Religion and Government, but theists in the political arena have subverted that.”
Again, you are not being forced to follow Christianity.. you are a product of liberal indoctrination.. you’ve been brainwashed.
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carmen
July 20, 2014 at 6:25 pm
Kathy, you know what? If you haven’t read all the HUNDREDS of articles that have been written on this topic, I cannot be bothered spelling it out for you. You just keep listening to the rhetoric from your fundagelical friends and pastor – oh, and people like Bill Keller – because it’s quite clear (and should have been around 1200 comments ago) that you just ain’t listenin’ to any kind of sense. Like I’ve said several times before, your tunnel vision is detrimental to yourself, your daughter, and society. THINK
*************************
Carmen, you are truly a poster child of the ignorance of liberals. You’ve demonstrated the best so far on this blog I think..
I asked you a DIRECT simple question..
“Carmen, please state the rights that are being violated.. I’ll wait for your answer..”
If you’ve read “HUNDREDS” of articles.. then you should have no problem answering this simple question.. so, STILL WAITING for your answer..
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“You’ve been brainwashed”.. .that one takes the cake, Kathy! 🙂 Best zinger yet!
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Kathy,
Back atcha’ —
(You) “are so incredibly wrong on all your views. It makes me cringe to see how naïve you … are.. and how easily manipulated too.”
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“If you don’t want to listen to prayer, plug your ears.” – OR – here’s an idea – create a Constitutional Amendment that keeps prayers out of government functions! Oh, wait – we already did.
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kcchief, you said:
“@Kathy, “Give an example of Christians trying to violate individual rights if you disagree.”
How about Roe vs Wade ? Abortion ? The freedom to choose.
Same Sex Marriage ?”
That “right” to choose violates the right of the human being whose life
is being taken.
And we have no “right” to redefine institutions.
We have a right to demand equal treatment by govt. but not to redefine something
that is the fundamental foundation of the survival of the human species.
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carmen
July 20, 2014 at 6:38 pm
“You’ve been brainwashed”.. .that one takes the cake, Kathy! 🙂 Best zinger yet!
Yay!
Still waiting..
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“People are free to not engage in the prayer.” – as an atheist, I should have the Constitutional right not to even be exposed to prayer at a government function, whether it’s a session of Congress or a High School football game, and that goes for being exposed to religious icons, or ANY religion.
Where is this “right” established? Please quote it.
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“Like evolution as the ONLY explanation has “wormed” it’s way into school?” – Evolution is science – but maybe that’s why you don’t understand it.
“Freedom ‘FROM’ religion doesn’t mean you are protected from exposure to it..</em" – yes, it does, in government places, but again, I'll repeat: "…theists in the political arena have subverted that.”
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We have a right to demand equal treatment by govt. but not to redefine something
that is the fundamental foundation of the survival of the human species.
Kathy, how does Same Sex Marriage violate anyone’s rights? Do you think that people will somehow be forced into homosexual relationships and marriage? Recognizing the rights of a group of people in no way diminishes the rights of another. People are not going to suddenly turn gay in droves. The same-sex couples that are in long-term relationships already will be able to stabilize their relationships through the act of marriage.
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Aw Nan, there’s nothing wrong with Kathy that a decade or so of intensive therapy couldn’t cure —
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The Hobby Lobby case is a good example. Another would be the liberal “hate crimes” law.. which is designed to take away first amendment rights.
The Hobby Lobby case is a strange one for sure. I don’t think it’s too much to ask that employers provide a group health insurance policy that covers birth control. No one is asking Hobby Lobby to do it directly, nor are they asking for government assistance. They are asking as premium-payers that the insurance that they pay for (at least some portion of the premium) cover birth control. Kathy, this doesn’t just affect single women who want to have sex at their leisure. This affects many, many women who are married, with children already, who want to manage their reproduction in a responsible way. Will there be single women who have sex outside of marriage who use it? Sure. Why is that any of Hobby Lobby’s business?
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“Where is this “right” established?” – It has been established in numerous court cases, and if you think I’m going to dig through all of those precedents, just to have you decline to read them, you’re crazier than even THESE people think you are.
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Kathy, I looked at some of the articles on the Hobby Lobby decision. As you probably suspected, they all had “Atheist Propaganda” stamped across them. . . darn it all. You win!
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Q: Where did Jesus tell follower to pray?
A: In private.
“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.” Mt 6:5-6
Number of times the gospels mention Jesus praying in private: lots.
Number of times the gospels mention Jesus praying at:
a) council meetings: none
b) grad ceremonies: none
c) sporting events: none
d) political functions: none
Conclusion: Obey Jesus and pray in private as Jesus commanded you to do.
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Ruth, you said:
“The Hobby Lobby case is a strange one for sure. I don’t think it’s too much to ask that employers provide a group health insurance policy that covers birth control. ”
They do Ruth, they cover 16 different kinds of birth control. All of this is over 4 specific kinds that can terminate a fertilized egg. They don’t want to have anything to do with aborting life. And they shouldn’t have to be forced to be a part of it if they want to run a business in this country.
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Ruth, cont..
“We have a right to demand equal treatment by govt. but not to redefine something
that is the fundamental foundation of the survival of the human species.
Kathy, how does Same Sex Marriage violate anyone’s rights?
I didn’t say that same sex marriage violates anyone’s rights.
“Do you think that people will somehow be forced into homosexual relationships and marriage?”
No. I didn’t say that either.
“Recognizing the rights of a group of people in no way diminishes the rights of another.”
Again, Ruth, no one has a “right” to redefine “marriage” or any other institution or word. People do have a right to demand equal treatment by govt. I agree that if the govt. offers tax breaks etc for married couples they should do so for other committed couples. But, in reality, that would discriminate against single people as it does now.. but that’s another issue to debate.
In creating “rights”, we can get into a lot of trouble.. if “marriage” is redefined to include 2 men or 2 women, then why can’t it be 1 man and 2 women? or 3 men? or 10 men? or a man and his dog? Who are you to tell these people that their love isn’t valid and they don’t deserve the same “rights”? This will destroy “marriage”.. it won’t be taken seriously, divorce rates will get even worse, more broken families, and more prisons to hold all the people who grew up without the benefit of both their biological parents.. the list goes on and on of the damage that broken families causes. Redefining marriage will harm society overall. It’ll make all the social problems worse.
” People are not going to suddenly turn gay in droves. ”
Maybe not in “droves” but the more acceptable homosexuality is, the more it will grow. And that will harm society and ultimately the future of humanity will be threatened.
“The same-sex couples that are in long-term relationships already will be able to stabilize their relationships through the act of marriage.”
I don’t argue that there could be some benefits to redefining marriage.. but those benefits don’t outweigh the negative affects that will occur.
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Who wants a theocracy?
Well, this guy certainly does. At the 2:55 min mark he states outright that he wants to limit voting to faithful Catholics under a benevolent dictatorship run by a Catholic monarch (3:41)
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Kathy asks:
1. If “marriage” is redefined to include 2 men or 2 women, then why can’t it be 1 man and 2 women? or 3 men? or 10 men?
So long as all affected parties freely grant consent, why not? If any number of consenting adults can legally enter into multiple business relationships, then why should there be restrictions when it comes to personal living arrangements?
And there can certainly be no religious objections given that the OT patriarchs practiced polygamy without any condemnation. In fact, 2 Samuel 12:8 informs us that God was perfectly okay with it:
“I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more.” (NIV)
2. or a man and his dog?
Because animals are incapable of granting informed consent, Kathy. But if your pooch can recite the marriage vows and sign court documents, then hey—why not?
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“ultimately the future of humanity will be threatened.” – How? Decreasing population on an overcrowded planet? A higher quality of life for all of us, without so many having to share limited resources?
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In answer to the NekidNeurologist, “I” was only posting to call Carmen out on her poor manners of posting on this thread after she had said she would NOT for the third or fourth time. This damn thread is so long I can’t tell.
So I need to post this. The link Nan brought up http://www.awkwardmomentsbible.com/child-coercion-memphis-church-summer-camp/
That’s not child abuse. That’s charismatics having a spirit filled retreat. You remember that previous video where the kids were there and the large angry woman was going on and on about how low and unworthy of God they were? Do you remember how quiet it was?
Well this is a group of speaking in tongues, dancing and singing people. They are trying to get the Holy Spirit to show up and you can’t do that of you just got through telling all of those children they suck. If it went like most of these retreats I went to then there was a praise and worship session with three or four lively songs then a 20 min sermon on how good God is and much we should be a blessing to him. Then more praise and worship interspersed with singing in tongues. There would be a lot of tears of joy at the end of the night and a few who were slain in the spirit or faking it, that’s really their business. And a lot of laying on of hands where they prayed for each other. As well as people proficy-ing, usually about about being strong. “Be strong God is with you!” That sort of thing.
The church is just trying to get God to show up. And it looks like they succeeded. These children in the video are happy. Just because they are crying does not mean they are hurt. It’s just tears of joy and I have been there myself. God I miss it. I gotta find a spirit filled church. Anybody know where there is an Assembly of God in Austin?
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Again, Ruth, no one has a “right” to redefine “marriage” or any other institution or word. People do have a right to demand equal treatment by govt. I agree that if the govt. offers tax breaks etc for married couples they should do so for other committed couples. But, in reality, that would discriminate against single people as it does now.. but that’s another issue to debate.
Words do get redefined. Not only that but the way our republic works, and the way our Constitution words does make it possible to do just that.
In creating “rights”, we can get into a lot of trouble..
The Constitution of this nation sets up rights for various groups of people and all people. The Constitution, which is amended frequently, is used for precisely this purpose. If “the people” deem an amendment necessary, and moreover if each state votes to approve, same-sex marriage then marriage is defined the way the state defines it – not the way a religion defines it.
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