You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
Correction: jig 😛
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Carmen, RE the kirk Cameron quotation – if you’ll look at Kathy’s i-Net piece, REVERSE IGNORANCE, it mirrors Cameron”s words about “political correctness” almost exactly!
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@KATHY
This post goes from the sublime to the ridiculous. No wonder Nate seems to have abandoned it!
Okay, let’s lay cards on the table, Kathy, shall we?
1. In the absence of a secular democracy in the US of eh? your piss-willy religion would soon be on hiding to nothing. Be grateful for the fact you can at least still whine about all the ”liberals” you so detest to your little Jesus Sunbeam heart’s content.
With the way Muslims out-breed Christians you might be looking at Islam being the number one religion within a century. Of course you’ll be dead and buried so why should you care, right?
Thomas Paine nailed it when he said:
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
Thomas Paine
Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst.
Thomas Paine
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#qbQpiOqaMEbT8SJG.99
There is no evidence for your god. None whatsoever and you have yet to demonstrate one shred of integrity in this regard and offer anything.
Also, verifiable evidence for the bible character Jesus of Nazareth is equally as parsimonious, to the point that the evidence for the man-god you genuflect to is, also, non existent.
This is why you as a believer are obliged to accept this on faith
If there was no faith then why accept these spurious claims at all?
And the best for last……
The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion.
– Thomas Paine
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Kathy,
The Monumental movie “Bible Study Guide” states this:
(Emphasis mine.)
This is the core belief of Christians. For them, a person is only upstanding, moral, and good when JC is dominant in that person’s life. And this is why believers like yourself debate, argue, and contend that YOUR way is the ONLY way.
The people who settled this country wanted a chance to worship freely and have an opportunity to choose which religion they wanted to take part in. They did not like the idea of everyone being a part of one church (Church of England). They wanted religious diversity.
It had NOTHING to do with insisting that everyone be a Christian. Essentially, this change in outlook came about with the “Great Awakenings” and especially when the hellfire and brimstone preachers made their appearance.
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My “emphasis” did not show up. It was this: Only a transformation of the heart can create godly behavior; a change that comes through believing in Jesus Christ and inviting Him into our lives.
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Carmen, RE the Kirk Cameron quotation – if you’ll look at Kathy’s i-Net piece, REVERSE IGNORANCE, it mirrors Cameron’s words about “political correctness” almost exactly!
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Nan, you said:
“Let’s turn this around. If the “religious right” were to be in control, those who did not bend to their beliefs and moral standards, would “be dragged out to the public square and stoned.”
It works both ways, Kathy. ”
Based on what Nan? If you’re referring to PAST actions of those who claim to be Christians, but
don’t follow Jesus’ teachings, that’s a fail. There is no Christian today who supports that.. again WE support the Constitution! It’s liberals who want to violate the Constitution and force people to go AGAINST their religious beliefs and follow liberal beliefs instead.
Give an example of Christians trying to violate individual rights if you disagree.
“Those who “believe” want everyone to live their lives according to bible standards.”
This is true, Christians DO want people to follow God’s will. So?? Again, it’s not us who are forcing our views by violating the Constitution.. that would be liberals.
” Those who support religious freedom say fine, let the religious live however they want, but let me, as a non-believer, live as I choose as well.”
No Christian, following Jesus’ teachings is trying to stop you from living your life how you choose, Nan.
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Neuro said:
“Kathy, you are playing games now. Based on what I’ve read on your blog posts and comments, and on Bill’s blog and the several videos I watched by him, you and BK want the U.S. government and its legislators to make laws and legislate based on your interpretation of the bible. One nation under Yahweh. ”
No, YOU are playing games Neuro. Your claim is FACTUALLY wrong. We clearly have a disagreement, so, at THIS point, YOU would quote our ACTUAL words that prove your claim.
Don’t accuse me of playing games when it’s really you.. that’s called “obfuscation”.. a favorite liberal, dishonest tactic.
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Arch said:
“Carmen, RE the kirk Cameron quotation – if you’ll look at Kathy’s i-Net piece, REVERSE IGNORANCE, it mirrors Cameron”s words about “political correctness” almost exactly!”
What’s your point Arch?? If it’s plagiarism or a claim that I can’t think for myself, just check
the date of my article.
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. .and Kirk Cameron is such a inspiring, intelligent, CREDIBLE person to emulate, arch. .. (that was sarcasm) Why am I not surprised that Kathy has to parrot her heroes. Again, Kathy – THINK FOR YOURSELF.
I am surprised that, while I was having supper, no one mentioned the Hobby Lobby debacle. So much has been written about it that it would be impossible for me to come up with something original. Suffice it to say that it, to me, is an example of a religious WRONG trumping women’s rights – and you can put that case forward as an example of how religious rights are being infringed upon??? Kathy, give your head a shake.
P.S. That’s an example of religion violating individual rights. .
But then, I should not be surprised, as your views of women come from the book that is full of misogynistic thinking.
ZEALOTS are the problem here, Kathy – and it doesn’t matter to me whether they are Christian or Muslim – you’re all way off base. You get the party line jammed down your throats and just keep vomiting it all back out.
Keep telling yourselves that you are right; I’m sure it works as you birds all feed at the same trough in your coop. But see what happens when you get outside the fence?
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“Give an example of Christians trying to violate individual rights if you disagree.”
• Attempts to include religious instruction in public school curricula
• Opening governmental meetings with prayer
• Opening public school sports games with prayer
• Placing religious statues and plaques on government property
• Exempting religious organizations from taxation
• Using government vouchers to pay for religious school instruction
Will that tide you over, or do you want more?
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It’s liberals who want to violate the Constitution and force people to go AGAINST their religious beliefs and follow liberal beliefs instead.
Kathy, can you elaborate on what you mean here? In what way do liberals want to violate the Constitution and force people to go against their religious beliefs?
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Ark, you said:
“1. In the absence of a secular democracy in the US of eh? your piss-willy religion would soon be on hiding to nothing. Be grateful for the fact you can at least still whine about all the ”liberals” you so detest to your little Jesus Sunbeam heart’s content.
With the way Muslims out-breed Christians you might be looking at Islam being the number one religion within a century. Of course you’ll be dead and buried so why should you care, right? ”
I don’t get your point either.. Christians are FOR a “secular democracy”.. read my comments a little slower maybe?
And as for Muslims out breeding us… NO KIDDING! It’s called “population jihad”.. I am personally witnessing it in my own neighborhood.
Even if the liberals here are having trouble figuring this all out, Christians aren’t. We DON’T want a theocracy of ANY religion.. we WANT religious freedom.. what I’ve just explained and what liberals can’t seem to grasp. shocker..
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“What’s your point Arch??” – Sick minds think alike.
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Kathy — what Arch just said …
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“Sick minds think alike.”
Either that, or we’re BOTH drinking. .. . 🙂
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““Give an example of Christians trying to violate individual rights if you disagree.”
• Attempts to include religious instruction in public school curricula
• Opening governmental meetings with prayer
• Opening public school sports games with prayer
• Placing religious statues and plaques on government property
• Exempting religious organizations from taxation
• Using government vouchers to pay for religious school instruction
Will that tide you over, or do you want more?”
What religious “instruction” Arch??
And opening govt meetings with prayer doesn’t violate anyone’s rights..
People are free to not engage in the prayer.
Same with games.. same with religious statues.. others can put their
own on display also.
Same with religious non taxation.. all religions qualify.
Same with vouchers.. no religion is excluded.
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No, not the sick minds part … the listing of examples. Jeez … can’t keep up once the postings get going!
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“It’s liberals who want to violate the Constitution and force people to go AGAINST their religious beliefs and follow liberal beliefs instead.
Kathy, can you elaborate on what you mean here? In what way do liberals want to violate the Constitution and force people to go against their religious beliefs?”
The Hobby Lobby case is a good example. Another would be the liberal “hate crimes” law.. which is designed to take away first amendment rights.
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@Kathy, “Give an example of Christians trying to violate individual rights if you disagree.”
How about Roe vs Wade ? Abortion ? The freedom to choose.
Same Sex Marriage ?
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Yes, opening govt. meetings DOES violate my rights. I don’t believe in Christianity, so why should I be forced to listen to a prayer? Same with sports, graduations, and any other public gathering.
Why should ANY church/religion be tax-exempt?
Hobby Lobby. No further comment needed.
Yes, in theory, non-Christians can place statues, banners, etc. on public (government) property, but Christians will scream to high heaven when they do and it definitely “makes the news.”
You are soooo wrong on this, Kathy. (Unfortunately), Christianity is the dominant religion here in the U.S., so anyone who doesn’t “believe” is automatically the offender.
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“Either that, or we’re BOTH drinking. .. . 🙂” – I’ll drink to that!
(Truth is, I haven’t had any alcohol in weeks)
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Carmen, you said:
“I am surprised that, while I was having supper, no one mentioned the Hobby Lobby debacle. So much has been written about it that it would be impossible for me to come up with something original. Suffice it to say that it, to me, is an example of a religious WRONG trumping women’s rights – and you can put that case forward as an example of how religious rights are being infringed upon??? Kathy, give your head a shake.
P.S. That’s an example of religion violating individual rights. . ”
Carmen, please state the rights that are being violated.. I’ll wait for your answer..
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“What religious ‘instruction’ Arch??” – how about trying to worm Creationism into school science classes?
You really HAVEN’T ever read the constitution, have you? The First Amendment not only protects freedom OF religion, it protects freedom FROM religion in government – school games, government; religious statues on government property, government; religious non-taxation, forgoing money we could use to operate this country, billions in fact; vouchers, government money to fund religious instruction. The First Amendment separates Religion and Government, but theists in the political arena have subverted that.
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“People are free to not engage in the prayer.” – as an atheist, I should have the Constitutional right not to even be exposed to prayer at a government function, whether it’s a session of Congress or a High School football game, and that goes for being exposed to religious icons, or ANY religion.
As an atheist, I should be secure that my tax money is not going to fund religious instruction, and in fact, if religious institutions were taxed, my own taxes might actually be lower.
And something I left off of my earlier list, my taxes are going to fund the Armed Services, yet Atheists and Agnostics in those services are forbidden to have a secular chaplain/counselor.
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