Agnosticism, Atheism, Bible Study, Christianity, Faith, God, Religion, Truth

Letter to Kathy Part 2

Nate

You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.

If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.

I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.

So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or  belief would be saved.

I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.

I was in a state of flux.

And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.

I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.

That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.

For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…

I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.

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Published by Nate

2,018 thoughts on “Letter to Kathy Part 2”

  1. I’m not sharing anything private. She shared openly in one of her blog posts and comments a few years back. But according to her beloved bible, she would be considered a whore and if she was the daughter of a priest, she’d be burned to death.

    “And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.” (Leviticus 21:9)

    But — she’d also be the property of her father until her father passed those property rights to her husband. But she sure as hell better be a virgin when she get’s married or…

    “If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 22:21)

    “If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)

    Kathy doesn’t seem to realize that the religion, Islam, that she hates so much got many of their teachings and traditions from the very bible she cherishes.

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  2. “Kathy doesn’t seem to realize that the religion, Islam, that she hates so much got many of their teachings and traditions from the very bible she cherishes.” – Actually, a man in Afghanistan just stoned his daughter to death last week, for that very same reason.

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  3. Christians can say what they will about Jesus, but according to the bible, He and his daddy (the Abrahamic god, are one and the same.

    “He who has seen Me has seen the Father.”(Yahweh) John 14:9

    ~Jesus

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  6. Yep, can’t forget the Holy Spook.

    “There’s three in Ceiling, right? Ceiling Cat, Jebus and Hover Cat. And three equals one. WTF? Srsly.” 1 John 5:7-8 (lolcat)

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  12. Nan, have you heard about this? http://www.goodnewsclubs.info/

    Reading your link and the first comment where the commenter James says “At 5:58 the girl in the pink top looks like there is some sort of demonic possession going on there”

    I was reminded of a discussion I had on another forum several years back with a Christian who attended a Christian camp in his teens (before he got “saved”). He was sharing why he became a “real” Christian after seeing a teen who had fallen to the ground and started seizing.

    The teen was having a grand mal seizure that causes violent muscles contractions, and he could have died. But instead of them calling a medic, the counselors made a circle around him, praying and commanding that the demons come out of him. Seizures usually last around a minute or two, sometimes a little longer. So within a few minutes, the child stopped seizing, and the teens who were watching were told that the demon or demons had been cast out. 😦

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  13. Damn, it just got personal! That camp “near Memphis” is actually in my county. It’s at the Rose of Sharon campground in Burlison. Last year local police busted some people at the site for operating a meth lab. They have a big Christmas light display every year, but my family’s never been there. I know someone who is heavily involved in that Church and we see him on a weekly basis.

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  14. Charity — wonderful to see you here — wished it was under better circumstances. I didn’t know the camp was in the county you live. We both live in states where most churches – denominations are predominately fundamentalist, and it’s a very daunting feeling when these people see everyone outside of their tribe as the enemy.

    Nita, the one in Nan’s link, says that “the enemy stole them (the pictures) and tried to destroy God’s work.” As the article notes, they were not stolen. So much focus on war and fighting, just like the Yahweh war god. It’s dreadful.

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  16. @Random Observer & Carmen..

    “Whoa Kathy, when you say someone is 100% right I get worried, as it just seems as though you are worshipping him and acting like a mindless follower. ”

    You both are making incorrect assumptions.. slow down when reading comments and try not to interject your own bias into what you’re reading.

    I didn’t say Bill is 100% right about “everything”.. he’s 100% right that the Bible is the final authority.. and he’s 100% right on all the major issues he addresses.

    If you disagree, address the issues/ points and try to prove me and him wrong.

    Carmen, I don’t claim BK is perfect.. I believe he has a lot of room for improvement. But, what I do like about him is that he’s not afraid to address the issues honestly according to scripture.. and how he laughs at the dishonest tactics liberals/atheists us to try to silence him.

    It’s not about being “nice” Carmen.. it’s about the TRUTH.

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  17. Neuro, you said:

    “Kathy — do you believe like Bill Keller, that America should be a form of government in which your biblical god is recognized as the supreme civil ruler and that biblical laws should be the final say in all matters?

    If you say yes, then I rest my case.”

    Neuro, I’m now making a 2nd request.. please post BK’s ACTUAL WORDS that state that he wants the US govt. to be a theocracy. Or MY words that state this.

    You are confused, as are MOST liberals/atheists on this point.. learn some history, I just mentioned to you the movie Monumental.. about Christians who wanted a new form of govt that gave people religious FREEDOM.

    You all keep demonstrating that you’re victims of liberal propaganda.. you believe all of it.. never actually thinking for yourselves.

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  18. Hey Victoria, I need to process the pictures and video. I just showed them all to my husband and all he could say was “WOW!” The man that we know from that congregation is really a nice man. I know he helped with last year’s kids camp for the church, but I’m not too sure if he helped with this year’s. I know that he and his wife talked about helping out this year, but there might have been a conflict in the scheduling due to their own business obligations. Maybe I’m just making up excuses for I’m pretty certain that I saw him in that video. I clearly see the face of one man with glasses and there’s a guy across from him catching those kids “slain under the Spirit”. The camera doesn’t scan his face, but the shirt and man’s build looks similar to the person we know.

    I don’t agree with this kind of religious propaganda, but I understand that some of those leaders and parents think that they are doing the right thing by leading little children into the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues. I could be wrong, but I believe that’s what’s going on in that room. From their perspective, they see it as empowering these kids against temptation and all kinds of evil. They truly believe that they are purifying their minds and hearts and setting them apart for a life of holiness in Jesus Christ.

    I believe the only reason some local parents may find this upsetting isn’t the religious indoctrination, but the style. There are quite a few traditional (low keyed) Southern Baptists in my area who detest raising hands, tongues and modern day worship choruses. I assure you, they are still quite aggressive in their child evangelism efforts. They eat, breathe and live Vacation Bible School, Sunday School and neighborhood outreaches. They begin preparations for next year’s VBS as soon as this one’s over. Due to their calmness and community involvements, they get away with a lot more regarding our kids than what the holy rollers do.

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  19. In the Camp Quest video (where kids are happy, laughing, having fun), I couldn’t help but think to myself that this would NEVER work at a fundamentalist church camp because they don’t believe in “mixed bathing.” And most likely, the girls would be told to “put some clothes on!”

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  20. Kathy, you already have a form of gov’t which gives you religious freedom, you just can’t recognize that fact. Evangelical Christians are determined to have Christianity trump ALL the religions – that’s the part that you cannot see. Contrary to what you and Bill Keller believe, Christianity is not the be-all and end-all of moral living.

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  21. Neuro, cont..

    ““And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.” (Leviticus 21:9)

    But — she’d also be the property of her father until her father passed those property rights to her husband. ”

    Once again, Neuro, you are demonstrating your lack of understanding of scripture. These passages you cite are specific laws for the people God had just rescued from centuries of enslavement. These laws were for the people whom God chose to reveal Himself to humanity.
    He was establishing Himself and the focus was on the IMPORTANCE of obeying Him.. and the consequences for not doing so. And this was all recorded for future generations to LEARN from.
    These were not rules for all people.. it was for these specific people.

    “Kathy doesn’t seem to realize that the religion, Islam, that she hates so much got many of their teachings and traditions from the very bible she cherishes.”

    What you fail to realize is that Muhammad made the same mistake liberals/atheists make today in not understanding that those strict laws were for that specific group of people. Although, with Muhammad (AND liberals?), it wasn’t a really a “mistake”, his “religion” was based on hate.. it was based on HIS will, not God’s. He copied the Bible but twisted the true meaning, using it to spread hate, not love.. and ultimately, the goal is to lead people AWAY from God.. just as liberals/atheists do today.

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  22. Carmen, you said:

    “Kathy, you already have a form of gov’t which gives you religious freedom, you just can’t recognize that fact. ”

    More liberal confusion.. Christians aren’t the ones trying to change our Constitution, that would be liberals, who want to limit religions freedom.. all you have to do is look at the Hobby Lobby case.. and how Obama/”progressives”/liberals are trying to force people to go AGAINST their religious beliefs.

    You’re spreading more propaganda.. it’s just simply not true that Christians want to force Christianity on you.. it’s actually the other way around. I realize how that statement will utterly confuse you, but that’s what truth does to liberals.

    “Evangelical Christians are determined to have Christianity trump ALL the religions – that’s the part that you cannot see. Contrary to what you and Bill Keller believe, Christianity is not the be-all and end-all of moral living.”

    How? Back up this claim with some facts Carmen.. so then you can see who is “blind”.

    And Christianity IS the “be all, end all” of morality. But you don’t have to follow it, you have free will, and the US Constitution to ensure that.

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  23. Quote by Kirk Cameron:

    ” … societies will eventually come to the place where political correctness is so important that if you don’t bend your beliefs to the moral standards of the politically correct, those in charge, you will be dragged out to the public square and stoned, so to speak, for holding your beliefs. Or you can hold them as long as you’re silent.”

    Let’s turn this around. If the “religious right” were to be in control, those who did not bend to their beliefs and moral standards, would “be dragged out to the public square and stoned.”

    It works both ways, Kathy.

    Those who “believe” want everyone to live their lives according to bible standards. Those who support religious freedom say fine, let the religious live however they want, but let me, as a non-believer, live as I choose as well.

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  24. “Neuro, I’m now making a 2nd request.. please post BK’s ACTUAL WORDS that state that he wants the US govt. to be a theocracy. Or MY words that state this.”

    Kathy, you are playing games now. Based on what I’ve read on your blog posts and comments, and on Bill’s blog and the several videos I watched by him, you and BK want the U.S. government and its legislators to make laws and legislate based on your interpretation of the bible. One nation under Yahweh.

    The gig is up.

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  25. Carmen, RE: “Evangelical Christians are determined to have Christianity trump ALL the religions”

    “Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease, any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?”
    — John Adams —
    (founding Father and second President of the United States)

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