Agnosticism, Atheism, Bible Study, Christianity, Faith, God, Religion, Truth

Letter to Kathy Part 2

Nate

You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.

If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.

I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.

So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or  belief would be saved.

I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.

I was in a state of flux.

And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.

I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.

That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.

For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…

I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.

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Published by Nate

2,018 thoughts on “Letter to Kathy Part 2”

  1. “I question if you even know what a theocracy is.” – Saying that to a woman who is many times over your intellectual superior, simply proves that she is, in fact, many times over your intellectual superior. Anyone who knows anything about Iran, knows what a theocracy is.

    Neuro: “I didn’t close my eyes to any information just because it didn’t fit into my world view. You do.”
    You: “No, I don’t. Again, please use my own words to back up this claim.” – you have repeatedly stated throughout this discourse that you won’t “waste your time” reading anything you consider to be from a “Liberal” source.

    “And Christians don’t have a problem with atheists and liberals as long as they don’t spread lies and force laws onto society that are destructive to the very survival of human beings.” – What laws would those be? Separation of Church and State?

    “He existes through empirical evidence and then “love” Him out of fear.” – Do you even listen to yourself?! What kind of entity insists that you love him out of fear? Love and fear should never even go together! Is that the way you were raised, in fear of your parents? That would explain a lot.

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  2. You’re pretty good at parroting what others say, but I can’t honestly say I’ve noticed you having an original thought since you got here, just the same tired, parroted phrases over and over, “compelling evidence,” “big picture,” “Liberal.” I can’t believe you have reached your age without figuring it out, but you’re simply not a very intelligent person. But I mean that in the nicest possible way —

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  3. Kathy, Kathy, Kathy. You continue to emphasize that you have presented “COMPELLING” evidence of God’s existence. Do you even know what the word evidence means?

    From Wikipedia: Evidence, broadly construed, is anything presented in support of an assertion.

    Assertion: a declaration that is made emphatically. (You have certainly made your assertions EMPHATICALLY!

    From Wiktionary: Facts or observation presented in support of an assertion (see above).

    When something is in evidence, it is plainly visible, able to be seen.

    Further, evidence obtained directly through physical examination, observation, computation, and inspection is more persuasive than information obtained indirectly.

    The only definition that I could find that might fit your definition is this: Something visible or evident (the bible?) that gives grounds for believing in the existence or presence of something else (God?)

    Using this last definition, we’re back to where we started since none of us feel the bible is credible.

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  4. She’s already said to Neuro, Nan, (though she’ll likely say she didn’t, but it’s not that far back, I can find it easily), that “evidence” is different from “proof,” so apparently, to her, evidence doesn’t necessarily have to actually PROVE anything. Really makes you shake your head sadly, doesn’t it? A mind is SUCH a terrible thing to waste.

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  5. Kathy, while I appreciate you taking the time to reply to my comments, you have clearly demonstrated an inability (by choice) to be open-minded with any information presented here that you consider liberal. I’m pretty sure that what I share in this comment won’t make a bit of difference but I’ve mentioned the amygdala in previous comments, in particular, the right amygdala which is associated with fear, disgust, aggression, fight or flight. Information from our senses reaches our amygdala almost twice as fast as it takes to get our frontal lobes (reasoning, critical thinking, social assessment). That means that unless we instantaneously know how to react to what we consider a potential threat, we will succumb to fear or overreact while waiting for the frontal lobes to catch up to figure out the right response.

    Christian fundamentalism wires people’s brain to see anyone who does not believe in your god and your interpretation of the bible as a threat. Experiments using fMRI scans have shown that when certain subjects are presented with a face of someone from a different race, the amygdala gets metabolically active — preparing for fight or flight. When you take these same subjects and subtly bias them to think of these people as individuals rather than members of a group, the amygdala does not light up. I think you see all of us as a group (of liberals and atheists) rather than individuals.

    You see us as enemies, and if you think the world will become a better place with that belief, it won’t. We are hard-wired to get edgy around people who are different than us, but the brain is malleable so you have free will to decide whether you want to see us as enemies of your god, to be feared, or human beings who have no intention of harming you.

    This is the man you said you supported and wrote a post about trying to convince us why liberals should be feared. He’s a convicted felon who’s ministry has been listed as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center’s. This man have very serious neurological issues. He’s a radical extremist telling everyone to vote for Jesus to become president of the United States as a way of telling Satan that you will not be responsible for any of his tools becoming our next president. He says he’s tired of Satan having his way. He believes that the bible is the final authority in all manners. He appears to be a man who is hyper-religious, dare I say psychotic (see second video) and consumed by fear.

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  8. Waste of time, Neuro, but you wouldn’t be you if you didn’t try, it’s the Humanitarian thing to do.

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  10. I know it’s probably a waste of time. Thanks for your feedback.

    As an aside, I wrote:

    “This man have very serious neurological issues.”

    I intended to say this man may have very serious neurological issues. It’s disconcerting that he apparently has had a great deal of influence over Kathy.

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  12. Neuro, your entire comment was just strange, as was the posting of BK’s videos.. you made no actual points, just accusations without any supportive evidence, what you and Arch and others do best. I had asked for specifics (my words) in regards to your previous accusations, which you just ignored.

    And the Bible IS the final authority in all MATTERS.. not “manners”. Bill Keller is 100% right.. which he is on every major issue.

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  13. “I had asked for specifics (my words) in regards to your previous accusations, which you just ignored.” – I’m still waiting on specifics as to why you believe a god exists, but i haven’t gotten them.

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  14. Whoa Kathy, when you say someone is 100% right I get worried, as it just seems as though you are worshipping him and acting like a mindless follower.

    He may be right, but 100%? I’m not even sure my wife and I agree 75% of the time.

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  15. Random Observer, good point and one that I noticed – it’s a red flag. Kathy, you are feeding this guy’s ego and I’m sure he’s not the least bit interested in you as an individual. You are part of a collective body of people he gets his jollies from; he’s a megalomaniac who thrives on power.

    Can you not see that people here have taken the time to offer you information and interacted with you as an INDIVIDUAL?? Many on this blog have appealed to your sense of reason for your sake and – by extension – for the sake of your child(ren).

    Please listen to the voices of reason, not the rhetoric being spewed by Keller – he just ISN’T a nice guy, Kathy. Take Nate’s and everyone else’s advice – read some books and THINK!!

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  19. Theocracy:

    “a form of government in which God or a deity is recognized as the supreme civil ruler”

    “a commonwealth or state under such a form or system of government.”

    Kathy — do you believe like Bill Keller, that America should be a form of government in which your biblical god is recognized as the supreme civil ruler and that biblical laws should be the final say in all matters?

    If you say yes, then I rest my case.

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  20. Noting your comment regarding the definition of a theocracy, I had a thought. I’m sure you’re familiar with some of these reality shows, such as “Survivor” – I have no idea how many weeks those continue (I don’t watch the stupid things), but how cool would it be, to have a camp in a remote, isolated area, where those interested could sign up – and part of signing up would require them to stay for the entire X-number of weeks – living in a small community for that entire time, following Biblical law to the letter, experiencing theocratic rule firsthand?

    Wouldn’t that just be the bee’s knees?

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  22. LOL—Comments are disabled for this video. Christian apologists are so objective and open to the receipt of dissenting opinions.

    Keller: President Obama has proven by his words and deeds to be a true enemy of god, as detailed in James 4:4 (“You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.”) [1] He’s been the most pro-death president in history, supporting the legalized slaughter of innocent babies, here and around the world. [2] A staunch advocate of the radical homosexual agenda. [3] A friend of the enemies of Israel. Every major spiritual issue of the day, President Obama has been a true enemy of God and tool of Satan.

    1. Note that he’s selectively quote mining here. Read in context, James 4 admonishes believers to stop fighting, quarreling, coveting, killing, yearning for worldly pleasures, being judgmental, being boastful, slandering others and scheming up ways to make money.

    2. Citation Needed

    3. Radical homosexual agenda: Christianese for advocating that those identifying as LGBT be treated as human beings and extended the same constitutional rights as others. A radical concept, indeed!

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  23. “she would be called a whore, then stoned or burned to death because she had sex out of wedlock and got pregnant.” – And here I was, staying away from that subject, for fear you ladies would be all over me like ugly on a warthog!

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  24. Since you’re bringing up education, Mike, I ask again — what are your scholarly credentials?

    Isn’t it obvious? Master of Blovius Maximus (Summa Cum Laude)

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  25. RE: arch’s hypothetical situation and Kathy’s place in it –

    I believe that would be, “Dogma: meet karma” . . .

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