You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
Kirk Cameron’s monumental failure is more like it. It didn’t even receive enough views to ,merit a rating at Rotten Tomatoes.
LikeLike
“You’re afraid of educated people, aren’t you?”
give Arch a banana. He’s at least come up with a credible reason why we like hanging out on this blog. lol
LikeLike
Nate: Can we have a Part 3 or even a new topic? This thread is a bit long…and haywire and Arch is out of ant-acid tablets?
LikeLike
“there is lots of evidence for the God of the Bible being your Creator.”
Kathy, let me rephrase that for you. You have yet to demonstrate any evidence for the god of the bible as being the creator. You can continue to claim that you have, but you have not.
And as far as the rest of your counter goes — it’s poorly constructed and does not compliment the vast amount of research (which you’ve closed your eyes too), nor does your assessment of me remotely resemble my own walk while I was a Christian. When I was searching for “truth”, and started questioning authority and examining my own beliefs, I didn’t close my eyes to any information just because it didn’t fit into my world view. You do. You support the teachings of a extremely religious radical who wants a theocracy in America and he was also a convicted felon. His ministry has been listed as a hate group. So it makes me wonder what exactly is going on in that stew of yours.
As I stated before, I don’t have an issue with people believing in god so long as they remain peaceful and don’t try to make laws that reflect their interpretation of an ancient book promoting a Bronze/Iron Age war god. But if you think you’ve demonstrated evidence that god exists, your god in particular, you are sorely mistaken. This is why your religion states that you must have faith to believe in its existence. Why? Because there is no evidence.
LikeLike
I hear you, Ark. I agree with what someone said (might have been Ron?) – about the fact that you can lead a person to (well-researched, pertinent, excellent) information, but you can’t make ’em THINK. It certainly applies here.
It’s depressingly clear that it’s far too late for a few of you, but the words, “Suffer, little children” come to my mind. .. and that is just sad.
I’d encourage you to take your blinders off for THEIR sake.
LikeLike
Too late? You mean hour of the day or Too Late in the sense we are all going to Hell?
So sorry, Ark. That was a JOKE – I had no idea anyone would take that SERIOUSLY. oops. . and my last comment was directed at TBlacksman, Kathy and (can’t remember now!). . . again, terribly sorry.
LikeLike
Blast! I do so love a conspiracy.
But it is weird come to think about it, especially as you don’t appear to have a blog or website. Hmmm?
Maybe you are Mike in drag?
LikeLike
Kirk Cameron is a has-been TV child star, who, because of his former fame, his still-boyish good looks, and his religious obsession, has been used in an effort to reach young people.
LikeLike
“Theology is never any help; it is searching in a dark cellar at midnight for a black cat that isn’t there. Theologians can persuade themselves of anything.”
— Robert A. Heinlein —
LikeLike
Prophecy. You want to improve on Ruth’s barf that as long as any people really really want a nation they can get it? That would be good and then we can move on to several I haven;t even begun to touch on. Speaking of which…….
ANNOUNCEMENT
I’d like to take this time to say that if there are any Brits on this blog – YOU ALL SUCK
If you really wanted the new world badly enough you would still have it and if you put your minds to it you can come over and reclaim the US of A any time you want.
Nate and his readers say you can – thats evidence enough.
You keep talking about my barf, Mike, but you never answered my question. Would you say that God used the Brits and the UN to accomplish his plan of having the Jews reform in Israel?
LikeLike
“That comment and your reference to you being a teacher & Kathy being a pupil?” – she was KIDDING, Ark, keep up! As for the “blinders,” Carmen was referring to Kathy. Carmen teaches 9th grade – I suppose it would be POSSIBLE for Kathy to still have a 6-year old child and still be in 9th grade, considering her obvious intellect, or lack of it, but if so, you’d have to give her an “A” for hanging in there well into her 20’s.
LikeLike
I cannot follow all this ….. there are better tomes to read!
LikeLike
;)….if everything out of nothing aint magic then call the authorities – magic has been a victim of identity theft.
careful.. some pretzel poses can hurt your back for good.
Krauss, nor arch, nor myself have posited that they know how this happened. What does “I don’t know” mean to you? Just because we don’t know doesn’t equal God. You’ve said so, yourself. So perhaps I should have said instead:
You have materialism + Magic Man(whose identity you claim to know).
LikeLike
Carmen, they don’t call Ark “Quick-Draw McGraw” for nothing – he has to pay them! He’s a little slow on the uptake, but otherwise, mostly harmless.
LikeLike
“I cannot follow all this ….. there are better tomes to read” – Never watched any Spanish “Novellas” on TV, have you? You want plot convolution —
LikeLike
arch, thanks!
But I can see how my (obviously WEAK!) attempt at satire would throw him off – I’ve taken this as a lesson in ‘what not to do’ on blogs. . . 🙂
He suggested I was Mike in drag?? Egads. . . 🙂
LikeLike
“I cannot follow all this …..” – Have you tried tracing the words with your finger? That might help.
LikeLike
Oh, damn..I’ve been rumbled.
LikeLike
“I can see how my (obviously WEAK!) attempt at satire” – I thought it was funny! I almost bought it until I recalled you said you taught 9th grade – even a 9th-grader knows more than Kathy.
LikeLike
Besides, a bucking butterfly could “throw him off”.
LikeLike
Sheesh, Arch. If you’re not hiding behind my back you are talking behind it and trying to elicit kudos from all and sundry.
Pea and Ess.
If Nate ”bans” you for being a disruptive element – seriously winding up the Crispyuns and wotnot don’t blame me, okay?
Why not go and ply your trade over on u know who’s blog, what I am band from?
I can’t comment – as you know – but it would be a real hoot to throw peanuts at the screen of my laptop while you ”ask questions” … 😉
He’s a lot more fun than Mike.
LikeLike
“Why not go and ply your trade over on u know who’s blog, what I am ban(ne)d from?” – Which one would that be, there are so MANY? And for the record, I would NEVER say anything bad about you behind your back, I ALWAYS hope you’re listening – I’d hate to waste a good zinger.
LikeLike
Mike wrote to N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ: “You are like a freshman Psychology major.”
Since you’re bringing up education, Mike, I ask again — what are your scholarly credentials?
LikeLike
Neuro, you said:
“Kathy, let me rephrase that for you. You have yet to demonstrate any evidence for the god of the bible as being the creator. You can continue to claim that you have, but you have not.”
Neuro, you don’t know the definition of “evidence”.. please look it up. Not only is there evidence for the God of the Bible being our Creator, it is COMPELLING evidence. You stating otherwise won’t make it all disappear.
“When I was searching for “truth”, and started questioning authority and examining my own beliefs, I didn’t close my eyes to any information just because it didn’t fit into my world view. You do.”
No, I don’t. Again, please use my own words to back up this claim. Your (or any liberal’s)personal assessments & claims without any evidence is worthless.
“You support the teachings of a extremely religious radical who wants a theocracy in America ..”
Again, please prove this using his own words.. I question if you even know what a theocracy is.
“..and he was also a convicted felon.” Why does this matter? Are you claiming that a person who’s had a conviction can’t turn their life around and can’t be sincere? Isn’t this the very “judging” that liberals whine about when Christians do it??
” His ministry has been listed as a hate group. So it makes me wonder what exactly is going on in that stew of yours. ”
Lol.. listed as a “hate group” by WHO? I’ll answer for you.. by a LIBERAL biased organization who considers ANY group a “hate group” if they disagree with LIBERAL views. They are a joke.. and you continue to push liberal propaganda.
“As I stated before, I don’t have an issue with people believing in god so long as they remain peaceful and don’t try to make laws that reflect their interpretation of an ancient book promoting a Bronze/Iron Age war god. ”
And Christians don’t have a problem with atheists and liberals as long as they don’t spread lies and force laws onto society that are destructive to the very survival of human beings.
“But if you think you’ve demonstrated evidence that god exists, your god in particular, you are sorely mistaken.This is why your religion states that you must have faith to believe in its existence. Why? Because there is no evidence.”
Sorry, not mistaken, sorely or otherwise.. again the evidence is very compelling. You and all atheists can choose to use the free will God gave you to ignore that evidence, you’ve all demonstrated this very well…. no one is stopping you or forcing any “theocracy” on you.. no Christian theocracy that is.
And as for faith, yes, it’s required.. it’s something God wants us to work for.. to seek Him out of love.. not “know” He existes through empirical evidence and then “love” Him our of fear.
It’s a very logical concept/ plan. But again, you have to have some measure of objectivity to understand it.
LikeLike