You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
Ruth said:
“Yes, ma’am, you most certainly do. You are absolutely right about that. You have every right to speak out and to vote the way you feel is best. But you’re only kidding yourself when you claim that the way you feel about any of this isn’t a direct result of your faith. ”
So? I don’t understand your point. I want what is best for society/ humanity and what God wants. And they are one and the same.
You are missing the real problem here.. that liberals like Arch are insisting that I can’t vote/ support policies for WHATEVER reason I choose.. again, it’s called democracy.
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“But it really doesn’t matter WHAT my reasons are.. I have a right to vote however I choose.. that’s what a DEMOCRACY is. Sorry liberals but you can’t tell people HOW to vote.. that would be something OTHER than a democracy.
That would be great if we lived in a democracy. But we live in a republic, which is precisely set up to keep the majority from running roughshod over the minority. There may come a day when you are happy that it is this way as Christianity may become that.
http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/AmericanIdeal/aspects/demrep.html
Ruth, we are a democratic republic.. we vote for people who support our views/ beliefs.. EVEN if those views/ beliefs are motivated by religious beliefs. We ALL STILL have a right to vote as WE choose.. not how liberals choose.
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“I am a bit curious though, as to who set you up as one to decide what is, or is not good for society –”
wow.. so I guess when YOU vote, YOU are “deciding” what is best for society.. who set YOU up to decide that?
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“No one is forcing you to follow Christianity…” – No, but if you insist on teaching Creationism in public schools, you’re forcing little children to learn about the Judeo/Christian religion, and they have no obligation to do so. If you insist on placing religious icons in Government buildings or listen to prayers at government functions, you are forcing people to be exposed to your religion, whether they wish to be or not.
Why can’t you simply confine your religion to your homes and places of worship, and expect others, of other religions, to do the same – then no one need be exposed to anything they’d rather not?
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“Martyrdom is not evidence of what IS, but of what is BELIEVED to be.”
And it’s extremely powerful testimony when it’s believed by credible people. Sorry but you can’t
take this away.
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“I want what is best for society/ humanity and what God wants. And they are one and the same.” – So you’re saying, Kathy, that you would vote for a law that insisted on Capital Punishment for working on the Sabbath (Num.15:32-36) because that’s best for society?
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Ron said:
“Your “valid points” are neither valid nor backed by any reality. In a previous comment I listed all the countries that have adopted legal same-sex marriage and asked you to identify which ones have suffered ill effects as a consequence. Thus far you’ve identified none. ”
You make the naïve assumption that the proof can be had in a decade or two.. it just shows how narrow yours and other liberals thinking is.. not having proof now isn’t proof that I’m wrong.. it takes more time than that. That’s how science works.
“And the reason why the U.S isn’t mentioned in Jewish prophecy is because the men who penned it weren’t even aware that North America existed, let alone concerned about its future role on the world stage—a clear indication that their god’s geographic knowledge was as severely limited as their own.”
Well, the prophecies are playing out just as described, with all the countries/ players identified.
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@ Kathy
I asked before, maybe you missed it? Could you please supply verifiable evidence ( a link even, or some such) of any Christian martyrs?
Thanks
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@Zoe “When it comes to what God told you to preach, do you think God is telling “the mainstream” the same thing but they are not listening?”
I have to assume he is but they worship the Bible so it wold really take a lot for them to notice. Plus they been so inundated with fear themselves that anything that sounds different from their dogma would be viewed as being form the devil. I am not being funny when I say you really do have to feel sorry for them. They have themselves stuck to a path of fear and death and do not realize it.
Zoe responds: Very interesting Hayden. Sounds like you have a strong faith/belief/assurance that you are on the true path as God intended.
“What would “healthier” look and sound like?”
Well I am soo happy you asked. Kind of like this, “God loves you very much Zoe. He wants you to have a blessed life. He wants you to make healthy decisions because that is what is best for you. And if you cannot find it in your heart or mind to believe in him then that is alright. He will continue to do good things for you anyway because you are his baby girl and he loves you…” Hows that sound?
Zoe responds: Actually, I think the first part is very much like the message I heard within my fundamentalist years. Minus this part though -> ” And if you cannot find it in your heart or mind to believe in him then that is alright.” The last part kind of reminds me of the dismissive tone used in a condescending way to remind me of how unenlightened I was when I asked questions of my former pastors.
I wasn’t actually thinking in terms of what I’d want to hear but more from your perspective and God’s too as He has told you how to preach. Thank you for your answers.
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Sorry Nate. I keep messing up on the formatting. Out of practice.
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Do you suppose Hitler decided that a Jew-less nation was best for German society? Suppose he figured he was doing his god a favor by destroying all of those nasty Jews, men, women and children, hundreds of generations later, descendants of those who killed god’s kid? That’s what happens when the “good of society” is placed in the hands of those who don’t know what they’re doing.
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“And it’s extremely powerful testimony when it’s believed by credible people.” – WHAT credible people Kathy?Ark has been BEGGING you to tell him, but you seem unable!
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How I Went from Being a Southern Baptist Preacher’s Daughter to an Open Atheist .
In her article, Lala Stone writes:
“Seth Andrews, author of Deconverted: A Journey from Religion to Reason and founder of the Thinking Atheist website describes in his book how he began an in-depth study of the Bible after first questioning religion. In Numbers 31, Andrews read how God instructed Moses to “kill all the male Midianite children and kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.” He read how rape victims deserve a death sentence if they don’t cry out for help. He also read about the numerous mass killings God commanded. When he brought all this to the attention of his Christian friends and family, he says that “[n]obody had satisfactory answers. Nobody joined my chorus of alarm bells. Nobody really cared.”
——–
Most of us atheists and agnostics are used to being told by conservative Christians that we are haughty and egotistical. To continue being a bible believing Christian meant that I had to lower my pro-social standards. In good conscience, I cannot associate myself with Christianity because it is associated with the bible, and the bible is, for the most part, homophobic, misogynistic, xenophobic, OK with slavery, promotes death anxiety and discourages critical thinking.
Even if verifiable evidence is eventually found proving that that Yahweh is “the God”, Jesus’ daddy, I would rather burn in the hell he created than to submit to such an anti-social God.
Nate, the article is a good read and compliments your OP.
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When I was a Christian, I thoroughly believed people needed to know Jesus — and some of the things I did to make this happen was by wearing jewelry that displayed the cross, carrying my bible everywhere, talking about my faith every chance I got, placing tracts in public places, etc. Plus, I totally supported the display of Christian symbols (nativity scenes, 10 commandments, crosses, billboards with John 3:16, etc.) everywhere and anywhere. And whenever prayers were offered at public places, I was thrilled that non-believers would be exposed to the words of the faith.
I firmly believed the more people were exposed to the Christian faith, the more likely they would be to “find Jesus.”
Never once did I consider the feelings of non-Christians. Why should I? After all, they were the ones who were wrong. THEIR beliefs (whether they were Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, Jew, or atheist) didn’t count.
I was really a close-minded B____.
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“Do you suppose Hitler decided that a Jew-less nation was best for German society? Suppose he figured he was doing his god a favor by destroying all of those nasty Jews, men, women and children, hundreds of generations later, descendants of those who killed god’s kid? That’s what happens when the “good of society” is placed in the hands of those who don’t know what they’re doing.
Arch, your comment reminded me of this short clip by John Hagee. Hagee is the President and CEO of John Hagee Ministries, which telecasts his national radio and television ministry carried in the United States on ten television networks, including 62 high-power stations aired to more than 150 million households. He is shown on networks around the glob. His San Antonio, Texas megachurch has over 20,000 active members.
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Kathy, did you read that? (Nan’s comment)
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“Instructing people to rely on faith rather than evidence results in more Christians. People who are more likely to rely on intuition rather than critical thinking are more likely to believe in God.” – Is this Kathy or WHAT?!
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Kathy, ” it just shows how narrow yours and other liberals thinking is.. not having proof now isn’t proof that I’m wrong.. it takes more time than that. That’s how science works.”
Exactly Kathy ! This is the most sane statement you have made on this blog ! We keep telling you the same thing about the creation of the universe and its beginning ! Science will tell us the secrets of the universe in time. That’s how science works !
Thank you for agreeing with us ! You are definitely showing progress ! Congratulations !
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Arch, yes. That was me at one time, too. The church is good at stirring up “feelings” that convince people that it’s God. But experiencing a sensed presence, for example, is not uncommon if the conditions are right, and one doesn’t have to be a believer to experience it. It’s all about interpretation. We now have a better understanding on what causes this phenomena from a neurological standpoint. They can be induced a number of ways, but pastors and evangelists have their own set of techniques and over the last 200 years or so have perfected them in churches and revival settings.
In his book, “The Third Man Factor”, John Geiger documented the effect in mountain climbers, solo sailors and ultraendurance athletes. He also listed conditions associated with it such as monotony, darkness, barren landscapes, isolation, cold, injury, dehydration, hunger, fatigue, oxygen deprivation (mountain top experience?) and fear; not to mention sleep deprivation, repetitive beats (such as in music), and mental disorders.
What’s interesting about this is that many of the writers in the bible most likely had experienced some of these conditions. They lived in one of the most seismically active areas of the world, some hung out in caves, the desert, and there was constant warring, etc.
But what was interesting from a personal perspective was that I learned (quite by accident) that I could create these experiences (feelings) via neurotechnology, not only in myself but in others. When a person is deeply indoctrinated they are naturally going to assume they are experiencing or “feeling” God’s presence, becoming dependent on intuition, rather than looking for other causes..
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“This is a strange and awkward way to phrase a sentence if it’s only introducing two points: that Jesus knew his time had come, and that he loved his disciples. Putting “before the Passover” in front of that is bizarre ”
Nothing bizarre about it. Its a summation that jesus loved his own to the end clearly indicating that the feast was that end. Now if you want it to be bizarre to suit your own purposes and wish to ignore the conjunction to keep your claim of a contradiction attached to a thread then of course you will do so. Its you. Besides you would probably find all of greek bizarre since word positioning means very little in greek
“This again gives a strong indication that Passover itself had not yet ha”
You’ve made the claim before but it has no weight if the passage is referring to the passover as a feast which is what John does over and over. You are merely begging that the conflation that happens everywhere else cannot take place here. Eating the feast is also referenced in the Ot as relating to the entire feast period. Your point on that is dead. Further there is nothing solid…NADA that indicates that entering into the building would have put them into contact with a body. thats the only thing that would make then unclean past the evening. If all they were afraid of was the defilement of entering a gentile’s house then that uncleanness according to the law would expire in time for the passover. The defilement of contact with a dead body would be a week. SO either way their concern would be with being unclean for the whole feast or for the offering before evening the day after the passover.
“Even though they would have been considered clean at sundown, they still would have needed to prepare for the Passover, which they couldn’t have done while unclean.”
Nope. Thats the other thing wrong with your preparation argument. there is little evidence there was any such preparation day for a passover. the Lamb according to the law was to be bought days before and not killed until the evening, Plus because you know you are in trouble with the defilement issue you are doing a spin off to another angle that just doesn’t work.. its says they were talking about EATING the passover and now you have it that they would be unclean preparing for it.
“As to the Jews not being clean, it seems to be in reference to the Rabbinical teaching that being in a Gentile’s house would make one unclean. Acts 10:28 references this too:”
Thats right Nate. You are realizing that for yourself but that would be gone by the evening so EATING the passover would not be a problem at all and they being priests would know that. Now look who is trying to change the text from eat to prepare in order to save his claim of a contradiction?
“Furthermore, I just don’t buy the idea that a Greek word that means “preparation” was only used in reference to the Sabbath. Maybe it’s used that way a lot in the NT, but that’s no surprise”
A) who cares what you buy? Its what you can prove that matters
B) who said anything about surprise
C) It has nothing to do with the NT Mr desperate. JEWS KEPT THE SABBATH
Fact is they didn’t have monday, tuesday wednesday they used numbers and relationships to the sabbath. Your own source admits this but claims the time was too early but that is contradicted by Mark defining it that way as well
“Incidentally, this same idea is given in Mark 14:12, when no one contends that it’s talking about the day before Passover:”
Actually That’s ANOTHER thing you missed. Mark and all the gospels actually contradict your claim that an entire day of preparation was needed for the passover Nate. The lamb was killed only toward the end of the day and then you cooked it and ate it. So this whole idea of yours of a whole days preparation is made up. You first presented it because you clearly thought the passover was a sabbath by itself and we both know it Furthermore sure that would be considered eating the passover feast . So what? Its up to you to prove hat it was the only meal of the passover feast that it could be said of and thats failed because it was NOT the only meal of the passover. in fact the second one the next day fits in most cohesively as to defilement issues.
“If someone is motivated enough, there are always ways of trying to resolve a contradiction”
If someone (like yourself) is motivated enough to not be wrong they will classify every fact that their shoddy research missed as a try to escape a contradiction and shucks even claim in defiance of all biblical scholars that translations are the end all and be all of determining what a text means.
I’d love to see the biblical scholars you have lined up that teach that commentaries, understanding word usages and context don’t matter only what English translations suggest to your own mind. I don’t know of any that make that claim like You and William do. Its pretty much amateur hour stuff not scholarship.
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Nan, I appreciate your comment. My dad was in the Air Force and we were transferred from California to the Mississippi Gulf Coast when I was around 10. As you may know, Mississippi is the most religious state in the Union and the most conservative. I met my late husband in Washington, DC. I moved away after school, but was only there a couple of years. He was from Alabama, and didn’t want to stay in DC, so we moved to his home state, which was also very religious and conservative. After he died, I moved back to Mississippi to be close to family.
You wrote:
“Never once did I consider the feelings of non-Christians. Why should I? After all, they were the ones who were wrong. THEIR beliefs (whether they were Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, Jew, or atheist) didn’t count.”
In many ways this was me. When you are around mostly conservative Christians, you never give others much thought except what you’ve been indoctrinated to believe, that they are lost. I didn’t know any nonbelievers during the time I lived in Mississippi and Alabama. If they existed, they were most likely in the closet. I didn’t know any Jews, or Muslims, or Hindus or Buddhists. I was indoctrinated to believe that atheists were uncaring, immoral, and evil. Was I ever lied to.
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Victoria, here is an HBO Documentary on the subject, “A Question of Miracles” filmed around 2000. It shows how evangelists like Benny Hinn use mass hypnosis , lighting, music, etc to excite and control their crowds. Very interesting.
youtube.com/watch?v=JJfaaPdP0kI
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Ken — fantastic. Right up my alley. Thank you! 🙂
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That was a powerful piece, with some good info in it in addition to the story – I sent it on to others.
RE: a “sensed presence” – try walking home from the movies late at night as a teenager, after just having seen a horror film, and try NOT to feel a “sensed presence” lurking in every shadowed doorway —
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You are most welcome, Victoria ! I was raised in this stuff. 🙂 I am very familiar with it all.
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