You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
oh yes, it was totally low brow and out of line. Inexcusable. I wasn’t mocking the fact that he cares for children that aren’t his own, or that he cares for mentally handicapped children – both very admirable things to do.
I also care for a child that isn’t mine, although thy’re not handicapped.
I was using mike’s tactics on him, which isn’t an excuse or a defense, and I shouldn’t point out his own mental shortcomings either, as it really has no bearing on the truth of the bible, something we routinely get away from discussing. Although, if he’s that sensitive to it, he may want to refrain from it himself in the future.
But I doubt he was really that offended by it – it was more of an opportunity to say, “ah ha! an atheist is acting like me, so you all should get off my back and attack him…”
But, despite his motives, i said what i said, and take responsibility.
BuT i will say that I have sympathy for the handicapped. I have sympathy for those who lose loved ones. i have sympathy for those who left their religions and in so doing lose their families, I have sympathy for those who have left their religion and are labeled by those who never knew them as never having truly believed, and I also feel sympathy for the religious who either believe whole heartedly (if not stupidly) or who struggle with their faith.
My sympathies, as real as they are, do not mean that I do not mock or make light of any of these at given times as a way to keep from being too serious or depressed or whatever. I really wasnt that upset with mike over what he said to Neuro, because I could tell he was just being a jerk, getting in a dig – there was really no harm, just nuisance.
and i wasnt making fun of a mentally handicapped little girl, I was making fun of mike in a very off color way – similar ways have been used here before I chimed in, and by the very one I directed mine toward.
that being said, I really dont want to be offensive and I should have thought better of before sending it. I do apologize for that
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“except i can admit that and the fact that I’m not a christian.
.”
I have nothing more to say to you . except you are beneath me and WAAAAAAAY below her. You took a swipe with a little mentally handicapped girl and want to compare it to something I said to an adult and your buy out of it not being as bad or worse is that you are not a christian?
Sheesh you’ve sunk below sick. be gone from my eyes. enough of this sick blog for the day
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.I happened to have had a number of SDA friends. I’ve been to their churches and you can go for months and not hear anything about Ellen G White.
Mike, for the record, I was a member of the 7th Day Adventist Church for close to a decade. I served on the church board. I taught Sabbath school. I was involved in camp meetings, and was featured in the SDA magazines. I got indoctrinated by the SDA after attending one of their 21 day Amazing Facts seminars. It takes exactly 21 days to rewire someones brain — to create a habit or break a habit — to get brainwashed.
But I am grateful for that experience because they encouraged us to study the Old Testament and that played a major role in me realizing that Yahweh was nothing more than a Bronze Age war god with the behavior of a dictator. Ellen White was and still is a mainstay and when people go to camp meetings every year, her library of books are made available in abundance and people buy them in abundance and give them out to proselytize.
Ellen White is a major figure (prophet and co-founder) of the denomination, and the teachings in the Adventist church represent Ellen Whites writings that she supposedly got during her 2000 visions after getting hit upside the head with a rock.
Now keep in mind that Doug Bachelor, who is a main spokesman for the SDA Amazing Facts Seminars, Ellen White and the SDA church lived in a cave for a couple of years in California, was not religious, and suddenly had a ‘religious experience’ and found Jesus.
Happy Sabbath, Mike. 😉
Oh wait, that’s not until tomorrow after sundown. Never mind.
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Okay, Mike. This ain’t Burger King. You can’t have it your way. But take a bow, bud. You gave it your best shot. William explained what he meant and, I’m pretty sure you knew what he meant. You just wanted to use it as ammo. Sorry if you can’t handle the recoil.
You read things into the scripture that aren’t there because they fit your narrative. Whatever. It’s your prerogative. But to insist that it’s the gospel because it fits is ridiculous.
the bible does not record most motions, head movements every time someone walked in and out of a room, interim travel etc. thats the whole point why contradictions cannot be constructed out of what is not said in regard to where people were.
No, the Bible says what it says. Nothing more, nothing less. If contradictions can’t be constructed, neither can harmonizations. You can’t shove “motions, head movements every time someone walked in and out of a room, interim travel etc” in there either.
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“And hey if you what to debate me on it. try your best. Can’t do worse than William” – mike
I did so poorly that mike refuses to engage me any more on biblical topics… he even pretends not read my posts in response to him, although we know he does because he’ll often take snippet of what I have said, create a new context for them, and run with them as he flees the issues… but is sure to add, “I almost didnt see this and kept myself from seeing the rest, but…”
it’s probably for the best though, when we did “debate” me on the issues, his points were typically winners like, “the greek and hebrew scholars who translated the bible didnt really know how to translate properly” or “see the picture of that city, well, it’ snot really there and it’s underwater,” or “wowsers,” or “the existence of the universe equals supernatural which equals jesus…”
Who can deny such wonders of intellect?
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@ William,
Things got heated and I totally understand the attempt at using Mike’s own tactics on him. I just don’t know if I want those tactics associated with myself and I highly doubt you do either. The thing is Mike is a master manipulator. He’ll deny that, but that’s what he’s been doing since day one. He’s good at figuring out how to press people’s buttons.
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Sorry but you are such a hypocrite ruth. If you really believe that the words don’t means what they do then you would have to concede that sometimes words have a meaning beyond their translation and dictionary usage but here you are in full blown out hypocrisy claiming that I wrongfully added words AND that I should Know in WIlliams sentence to add words
Does it hurt being in such a pretzel shape?
Don’t try to act so dumb, Mike. It really doesn’t suit you. I’m not being hypocritical at all. I’m just saying that if you can add words, other people can add words. They just might not be the same words. Because there’s a lot of details left out of those scriptures, different people are going to fill in the blanks in different ways.
No, it doesn’t hurt at all. I do yoga. *gasp*
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“I have nothing more to say to you . except you are beneath me and WAAAAAAAY below her. You took a swipe with a little mentally handicapped girl and want to compare it to something I said to an adult and your buy out of it not being as bad or worse is that you are not a christian?
Sheesh you’ve sunk below sick. be gone from my eyes. enough of this sick blog for the day” – mike
I think you’re being overly dramatic. I’ve apologized, and said that i wasnt intending to mock any little girl – just you. Poor judegmenmt on my part. it wasnt the first time and wont be the last. I’ve both done and said worse, to my shame, but even your jesus takes sinners. I can understand why you would not be so eager to forgive an attack on your little girl (eventhough i wasnt attacking her) as she is speacial to you – I can get that.
Neuro’s husbands were likely special to her too.
what do you want me to say?
and I dont buy that you’re upset over this – not after how you’ve acted the entire time you’ve been here and after the things you’ve said.
I may very well be a morally corrupt human being – but that doesnt change the fact that you are as well, and nor does it negate the reality of you’re poor arguments in defense of a corrupted book, given to you by men, that you accept as being from god because the book said it was.
these are the real issues of this blog, and i realize that you’re happy to sidestep them at every opportunity, but that’s why we’re here – if you’re not, you can go elsewhere. If you wish to stay, then lets get on point.
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“Things got heated and I totally understand the attempt at using Mike’s own tactics on him.”
ROFL…….I LOVE it. (the display of hypocrisy so easily seen that is)
The theists says “maybe you picked the wrong men”
Nate’s crew says: “you are evil and scum for saying such a thing” : )
Then one of Nate’s crass Atheist crew uses a mentally handicapped little girl to make an insult and
“I totally understand the attempt”
HAHAHAHAHAHA
Finding Truth my eye. 😉
When will you guys comedy show be in vegas? Mind you don’t quit your day jobs because you guys throw around mental illness so much you’ll be kicked straight off the stage after complaints from advocates of the mentally ill
talk about sick? You all should know
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“Ellen White is a major figure (prophet and co-founder) of the denomination, and the teachings in the Adventist church represent Ellen Whites writings that she supposedly got during her 2000 visions after getting hit upside the head with a rock”
Most teachings of the SDA Church are biblical Neuro not merely based on Ellen G whites visions. If you don’t know that then I find it highly dubious you spent ten years there studying your bible.
anyway you enjoy the weekend yourself
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“Victoria I have told you before – I am not your type. I know thats pretty much your check list for a mate but I thank my stars I have never had those issues especially since, no offense not calling you a black widow or anything, I happen to like my sanity and my life and the two don’t seem to have lasted long for males in close proximity to you.”
“why is it off the table to suggest that maybe you picked people with issues?”
You see, Mike, you can whine and manipulate all you want about me and others mocking mental illness, but you are the author of such mockery. Think about what you wrote. Imagine someone saying that about the little girl you care for — “that you picked her because she had issues, then boast about your “sanity”.
Troll
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@ Mike,
You’re a button pusher and you know it. You totally piss people off. I didn’t say I agreed with the way William went about it, but you consistently – even when people admit a mistake – want to shove their face in it. Yeah, I get wanting to do that to you in return, but you’ve given plenty of ammo for that without having to use your involvement with a mentally handicapped child. Maybe you missed the part where I said that people’s family and loved ones should be off limits.
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“Don’t try to act so dumb, Mike. It really doesn’t suit you. I’m not being hypocritical at all. I’m just saying that if you can add words, other people can add words. ”
No you are not. Stop your incessant lying please (I know…… not much hope of you stopping). You are claiming that adding words to the Bible is manipulative of the text (which you don’t even know well) at the same time claiming that I should know that William meant to add words because its understandable
Kind of your barf awhile ago about understanding the atheist’s reasons for trying to throw a handicapped girl around as an insult
TOTAL and absolute hypocrisy
There isn’t enough yoga in the world. However If you could hold a stance as twisted as you do thinking ….You’d be world famous in no time.
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“Most teachings of the SDA Church are biblical Neuro not merely based on Ellen G whites visions.”
Scripture interpreted by Ellen White’s 2000 visions.
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@ Mike,
You see, I’m not a mental health professional and have never taken any classes. It doesn’t take one to realize that individuals are complex and trying to box them into the kind of black and white thinking that has been displayed here – on both sides – is a little bit disconcerting.
You’ve picked apart everybody here because they’ve revealed something personal about themselves – either here or on their own blog. You’ve presumed to know all about them and have them sized right up because they dared to reveal personal details about themselves. “Yep, Victoria, your husband committed suicide so you need someone to blame.” “Yep, Nate, you left Christianity for emotional reasons because you didn’t like this or that.” You haven’t revealed much that is personal and the one thing you did reveal got used against you. It doesn’t feel real good, does it?
The thing is you’ve been doing it to everybody else, yet when it’s done to you (i.e. Victoria questioning your sanity, drug use, prison record), it’s stupid and wrong.
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No you are not. Stop your incessant lying please (I know…… not much hope of you stopping). You are claiming that adding words to the Bible is manipulative of the text (which you don’t even know well) at the same time claiming that I should know that William meant to add words because its understandable
That’s not even close to what I said. I’m claiming that people add words to fill in details that are left out. All.the.time. In ancient texts and in modern texts.
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“You see, Mike, you can whine and manipulate all you want about me and others mocking mental illness, but you are the author of such mockery”
Oh poor baby. trying to make some point because after incessantly claiming over and over and over and over again to suit your own atheist purposes that theists are mentally ill I stated back to you that I liked my sanity. Thats your great come back? weak
What a hypocrite you are. I am the author of such charges but you are the one whose whole narrative is that anyone that doesn’t agree with your on God has some kind of mental issue going on. lets face it its a common claim of atheists that theists are morons. All you have done is dressed up that ad hom with a few studies (while leaving out the ones you don’t like) to mask your cheap shots. The end.
“. Think about what you wrote. Imagine someone saying that about the little girl you care for — “that you picked her because she had issues”
Actually yes if there were more than one. I can see the point flew right over your head. If I picked two mentally handicapped children to take under my wings I might have to deal with the fact that yes maybe I was picking them based on that to some extent. I am sure I would be asked about that as well. Claiming theres something wrong with that kind of introspection or even being asked about that is just silly
“Troll”
We both think that word so we do have something in common after all. I think that word sometimes when I see you trying to pass yourself of as a neurosciene expert proclaiming that believers are mentally ailing by virtue of being theists.
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There isn’t enough yoga in the world. However If you could hold a stance as twisted as you do thinking ….You’d be world famous in no time.
Think we’ll just start calling you spaghetti junction. You pick and choose which parts of people’s statements you want to use to twist them into meanings they never held in the first place – just like you do with the Bible. As much twisting as you do it’s hard to believe you can make your fingers type the words “hypocrisy” and “lying”. Or maybe it’s because you do both so well that you are so familiar with the practices.
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“If I picked two mentally handicapped children to take under my wings I might have to deal with the fact that yes maybe I was picking them based on that to some extent. I am sure I would be asked about that as well.”
Wow! Can you be any more demeaning to those with mental health disabilities?
Mike, I have no respect for you. You’ve proven yourself to be a troll, therefore I will no longer engage in discourse with you in the future.
Again, my apologies to Nate for my part in any misunderstandings and discord. Belief is a complex subject and I tried to address issues that are rarely explored but should be. Thank you for your graciousness and for giving me a voice here. I will take leave on this post.
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“The thing is you’ve been doing it to everybody else, yet when it’s done to you (i.e. Victoria questioning your sanity, drug use, prison record), it’s stupid and wrong.”
Ruth so weak and so full of hypocrisy. If you wanted personal details about me you would have asked “tell me some things about yourself”. Neuro could have just asked ” so tell us mike how did you become a Christian? leave it there and waited for an answer. None of you ever have. Imagine if you didn’t have blogs and my opening questions to you upon hearing you were an atheists were
So tell me why are you an atheists?
Did you fall on your head when you were young?
Were you sexually abused?
Did you do a little too much drugs?
how about alcohol too much drinking dulled your senses?
been diagnosed with low IQ?
were you just indoctrinated as a child by another atheist and gave in?
How about some other mental illness?
Car Accident where you hit your head?
Go ahead if you wish and lie through your teeth and claim you would be fine with those insinuating questions but we will both know you are lying. trying to compare that to me referencing things that you have said of your own accord with no leading and none of me asking if you had been in prison and on drugs is just drivelling asinine nonsense and you should be ashamed of yourself (and perhaps would be on another blog).
Your come back might be along the lines of Nuero but her own numbers betray her silly nonsense never mind that the opposite argument can and has been made
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/seanthomas/100231060/are-atheists-mentally-ill/
You are just sore that your narrative of being a more honest, righteous set is betrayed by what you have already revealed and thats the only time I bring those things up
Alas what the point? Your collective hypocrisy and penchant to lie is just too thick especially to yourselves .
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mike’s dishonestly is amusing because it’s so obvious, and only he pretends it’s not there. he tramples on the graves a widow’s passed husbands, and tries desperately to invent tangents to avoid the topic of a blog he chose to participate in.
It’s like performance art.
Now he’s playing the victim. Poor, poor mike. He’s thrown rocks and thrown rocks while pretending the he owed the moral high ground, and now that rocks have been thrown back, he runs weeping like a sniveling spoiled child.
It’s all too much, and rather amusing.
Mike really does add some excitement to this blog. It would be nice if he could some substance too, but you just cant have everything, and should try not to get upset over what you dont have, but instead be happy for what you do have.
Mike is nate’s court jester, and I’m glad he’s here. let the fool perform – it’s what he does.
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“Wow! Can you be any more demeaning to those with mental health disabilities?”
Egads what a vacuously silly point. So if someone asked me if I picked children to help that were mentally handicapped it would be wrong? and what would be demeaning of those with mental health abilities if I had compassion on that infirmity and wanted to dedicate all my time to help those that had it? Sheesh. Do you ever think? For someone who talks about impaired cognitive ability you make some of the drop down silliest points.
“Mike, I have no respect for you. You’ve proven yourself to be a troll, therefore I will no longer engage in discourse with you in the future.”
great more free time to not have to waste to your nonsense. gracias.
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You are just sore that your narrative of being a more honest, righteous set is betrayed by what you have already revealed and thats the only time I bring those things up
I’m not sore even a little. This whole exchange has caused me to reexamine some things, myself – especially where my own behavior is concerned. Do I have some biases? Do my life experiences color my perspective? Sure they do. I’m a human being. I’ve admitted as much.
You haven’t asked anybody here, to my knowledge, any of those questions. Surely you must know there’s more to any one of our deconversions than we just had a bad experience and that was that. Just like I know there’s more to your being a Christian than warm fuzzies. People believe what they do for a myriad of reasons, not typically just one.
Go ahead if you wish and lie through your teeth and claim you would be fine with those insinuating questions but we will both know you are lying.
I never said I would be. I understand why you’re insulted. It’s for many of the same reasons I’m insulted when you make claims about my former Christianity or lack thereof. Sometimes I’m more than a little uncomfortable with the “internet diagnoses” flying around here on both sides. If you read back through my comments I never accuse anyone of being a Christian because it’s “just emotional” or “a crutch” or they have a “mental disorder”.
I’m only speaking for myself here but if I say those things I say them about myself as well. I claim to be a former Christian. I don’t think I had a mental disorder, I never considered it to be a crutch or an emotional decision. It was far more complex than that. Just as my current unbelief is more complex than just “she had a bad thing happen to her so she constructed a narrative to cope”. That’s frigging insulting! Just like “you bumped your head so you became a religious fanatic”.
Pretending we know more about other people than they know about themselves because of a few revealed details is just really a bad idea all the way around.
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Mike is deflecting because he finally realized his old go to argument about the bible not being interpreted correctly is as harmful to his position as it is to any other and he lackes the ability to admit that outloud.
so, instead he pretends none of it happened, refuses to engage on the subject and prefers to get lost on side points
but, like the problems in the bible, these issues dot go away just because you shut your eyes to them
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“there will be no apologies form you and Arch for it either” – For what? For saying that anyone who associates with you, does so at their detriment? You’re a poster child for the truth of that statement.
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