You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
“. Because he (mike) sucks at Christianity.”
“and how would you know?” – mike
I’m gonna throw out a guess and say because he read the bible. You see, mike, the bible defines christianity, and when someone doesn’t measure up to the character traits taught in the NT, one can tell whether someone is a true follower or not – sort of like when jesus said, “by their fruits they shall be known.”
so if someone portrays sympathy, love, patience, turns the other cheek, treats others as they’d like to be treated, etc, etc, that someone could be identified as a christian without ever having to say that they were one – conversely, if someone claims to be a christain, but does the opposite of those things, they can be identified as not being a true christian.
Perhaps you should read your bible more with the intent on self application. Anyone can be pharisee, it takes more effort and more self reflection and little ignorance to be a true christian.
And while I do find the moral characteristics of Christianity to be very good, I say “ignorance” because I still think the bible has serious shortcomings….
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“Mike, 1 in 5 people in the United States has a mental disorder. 1 in 17 have severe mental disorders. The 4 I listed is in that 1 in 17 category. ”
Good neuro then apply come common sense for once in your life . that means 8o% do not. given that theism even conservatively lingers around the 80-90% conservatively that means that the vast majority do not. therefor it is totally irrational for you to think that people who adhere to theism need to be asked if they used drugs, had been to prison or had experienced mental disorders as an opening series question – Irrational and ill mannered. You do this to bolster your argument against all religion and its just an adhom dressed up with some VERY selective papers to get you to where you want to go
This is you elsewhere claiming religion itself causes mental illness
” “It is true — religion has caused neural circuity in the frontal lobes of believers to deactivate”
So don’t try to bare face lie again that you never say such things of all believers
“My partner had a mental disorder caused by a traumatic brain injury. One of the symptoms was hyper-religiosity. This is a fact.”
So is the fact that correlation does not equal causation which you staggeringly though citing scientific papers have no grasp of. Because hyper religiosity is a manifestation of some mental disorders in some people does not mean that hyper religiosity is the cause of mental illness or that every one (or even most) who are devout theists are victims of mental disorders. How can you be so dense? thats not how science is done. even common sense would instruct you on that.
“He had never been religious in his life, wasn’t even a believer, then had a . sudden religious conversion. He became obsessed with god and the bible. He thought he was chosen of god and was on a mission for god, much like the apostle Paul. Much like SDA prophet. Much like a lot of the radical fundamentalist preachers and some of their followers.”
this is why I have to call you out on your nitwit thinking Neuro. People become obsessed with God and the Bible because they already know it in their culture and the position it holds. Claiming that Bible characters are on par with people mimmicking them now just betrays the lack of thought you put into your reasoning. In addition to all your other blunders of logic you also exhibit circular reasoning here. hearing voices is only a symptom of mental disorders if no one is talking to you. You have to assume that God could never ever talk to anyone (or input you own belief that he doe s not exist) to come to the conclusion that EVERY SINGLE PERSON who claims to have heard from him is mentally ill. Of course this appeals to you as an atheist but it does not change the nature of the fallacious reasoning. Read up on it here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question
DO too much of that kind of reasoning in your regular life and you might have some mental issues yourself.
“I am sorry to hear about the little girl’s mental disorder, but you throwing a hissy fit yesterday about mental disorders only serves to exacerbate the sigma of mental illness. If one of the symptoms of heart disease or diabetes was hyper-religiosity, would you have gone on your tantrum?”
Your doing so much lying and contorting there I will have to break it down into points
A) first hings first….I withdrew one part of my statement to you and not surprisingly you mistook it . There was no hissy fit. You just don’t like what I said. For your own purposes you want to look at the fundamenatists you blame for that tragedy without looking at any of the other possible factors. I can understand that helps you cope but its wrong to do that. Putting all the blame on one party is easy but it does nothng but skew perspective. Suicide is a complex issue
B) You were not discussing any issue with me and to claim you were just shows how imbalanced you yourself are. You started out asking me about my faith with a bunch of leading questions about being in Prison, taking drugs, being mentally ill etc. its staggerig that you seem to think thats normal civil discourse. If you had any professional understanding of even basic psychoanalysis you would have simply asked the question without leading it with alternatives that merely express your extreme bias. Like I said you give yourself away with those amatuerish slip ups.
C) As I have tried to educate you on several times No medical expert focuses in one one symptom to make a diagnosis. One symptom is not indicative of ANY specific illness. Your status as a fake expert and a self serving one at that is that you focus on ONE possible symptom while in the pursuit of atheistic and liberal causes…Your own tantrum (yep a REAL one) in the last post on your blog is indicative of that. You can fool your beloved comrades but yours is just an adhom wrapped up in a few carefully selected (and others excluded) papers to sanitize and hide the vile you pour at Christians and Christianity
that makes this post long enough. I’ll deal with the rest of your nonsense in my next post.
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“I feel sorry for her, not because of her illness, for which I hope she gets the help she needs, but because of her association with Mike, DEFinately NOT the kind of help the poor child needs.”
Hey Arch 🙂 Whats next? I might cause her to kill herself? lol
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”The belief they’re trying to instill is based on fear (fear of not getting gifts) and not on real knowledge or rational thought. Very much like religion.”
Exactly.
Santa vs God
Keeps a list of who’s naughty or nice — check
All knowing and omnipresent — check
Long white bear — check
Generally believed by children — check
Taught to children by parents — check
Sings songs about — check
Expects sacrifices, tithes and cookies — check
Requires faith — check
Has servants or helpers — check
Has never been seen — check
Said to reward obedience and punish disobedience — check
Never returns calls — check
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“I might cause her to kill herself?” LOL???? Just HOW is that funny?
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“Hey Arch 🙂 Whats next? I might cause her to kill herself? lol”
Now who’s making light of a serious comment ? Yes Mike , this has happened many times before and yet you laugh it off.
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“Think about that for a minute. Most neurologists who have extensively examined Paul’s behavior state that he had all the symptoms of temporal lobe epilepsy.”
ROFL….See why I call you a nit. Seriously how many neurologists without some agenda have had the stupidity (or the time) to claim to be doing proper pscyhoanalysis of a man dead 2,000 years ago. Yet with total hilarity you cite it as if theres some science to that. HAHAHAHA
Heres the 411 my dear. Most psychologists can barely properly analyze the patient in front of them much less one dead for nearly 2000 years who they never questioned. and don’t try to fudge the facts like you always do. there s been no great herd of neurologists rushing to analyze Paul. Like I said you have to have a issue to grind to do that and frankly its circular and just more of your utter nonsense jumping back and forth between claiming Bible characters are fictional when it suits you and nonfictional when it doesn’t
Some times in great hilarity doing so at nearly the same time 🙂 🙂
“In the United States, approximately 200,000 people…………….. Up to 10 percent of those with TLE will become hyper-religious and believe they were chosen to be on a mission for the god of their culture. That’s just one neurological disorder. You do the math.”
I did can you? that makes 20,000 out of 320 million of which most are theists. That translates to roughly .006%. If you were not so silly and backed up by equally silly people you would realize you just shot your point in the foot. actually both feet because that means that barely ten percent (probably less as “up to” implies the max possible) of people with TLE have hyper religious experience.
Take a bow you just destroyed your own point. the good news is you run in a group that will claim you didn’t because they have no sense.
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“Now who’s making light of a serious comment ? Yes Mike , this has happened many times before and yet you laugh it off.”
Wheres the serious comment. you silly person you? Do any of you know what I provide for her but you are making comments about how someone being like a dad to her is a bad thing? too stupid. is this where I should say YOU crossed a line?
Yes I think it shows just that by your own standards. SO let me return the favor 😉
You are a sick and scummy set for trying to back up the idea that someone taking on a mentally handicapped child to be like a father to her is a bad thing simply because that person has issues with you on a blog
Sick and hypocritical.
tell us all what mentally handicapped children you have stepped forward to help because I’ve never heard you say a word about doing that. Hurry up? make up some imaginary children.
and yes…. lol….at the way you guys think. less than twelve hours after taking issue with me saying an adult might have picked a certain kind of guy you are trying to berate the action of helping out a handicapped little girl.
and I’d bet cash there will be no apologies form you and Arch for it either.
Like I said….anything goes if its in the support of your beloved dopamine rush atheist agenda.
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“Good neuro then apply come common sense for once in your life . that means 8o% do not. given that theism even conservatively lingers around the 80-90% conservatively that means that the vast majority do not. therefor it is totally irrational for you to think that people who adhere to theism need to be asked if they used drugs, had been to prison or had experienced mental disorders as an opening series question – Irrational and ill mannered.”
Yes — and that 80+ were exposed to indoctrination, mostly from childhood. Again, Mike, my comment was in direct reply to your comment to William and a comment you made a while back that you were not raised in a religious environment., and therefore indoctrination played no role in you becoming a Christian. Your comment came across to William that he and others who were born Christian or raised in a Christian culture had not been a real Christians. You insinuated that you were a “real” Christian and that you didn’t become one due to the influence of your family or culture. So my point was that if someone does not come to Christianity due to indoctrination — influence from their family or cultural religion then there are other major factors that do cause people to convert. I listed several very common reasons that would lead someone to become a believer in Christianity. And in case you are not up with the research, which you are not, people who binge on alcohol and drugs can have seizures which can cause neurological scarring leading to mental disorders and hyper-religiosity.
God and the Temporal Lobes
— http://youtu.be/qIiIsDIkDtg — (part 1) 7 minutes
— http://youtu.be/5z4B5BYbjf8 — (part 2) 6 minutes
Prison ministries are very common, i.e., proselytizing hence, did you find Jesus in prison?
People being ministered to in hospitals is common, i.e., proselytizing, hence, did you find Jesus when your health was failing and Christians ministered to you, or you turned to your cultural religion because you felt vulnerable?
People who are vulnerable during a crisis or trauma are usually the targets of proselytizing
Countries that are war torn and/or in poverty are the targets of proselytizing. Arch posted data showing that people who live in countries where their needs are met, physically and emotionally, they have no need to believe in a god. Hence, why Christianity most often targets the vulnerable.
I don’t expect you to acknowledge this reasoning or any data and educational comments that has been presented to you by myself and others. Why? Because you are not here to reason or have a civil discourse. You have all the characteristics of a troll.
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I just cant shake the feeling that mike likes getting off on the wild tangents so that he can argue about anything but the merits of the bible – and on a bible related blog too.
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“I did can you? that makes 20,000 out of 320 million of which most are theists.”
Mike, you are not thinking. The hyper-religoius tend to have a great influence over those who are not. Remember the prophet of the SDA church? She sustained a head injury after getting hit with a rock, soon became hyper-religious and in a very short amount of time gained a following of 25 million. That’s just one person.
You don’t think.
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“Just know this Mike, you have been proven wrong on many points here and rather than accept that and acknowledge it you continue to take virtual swings at proving yourself right. You knew full well what William meant’
Ruth your attempt at mind reading to save your comrade is a flop like all your other points
(kids reclaimed Britain yet?) . I knew what WIlliam meant because he wrote exactly what he meant
“Born a Christian”
You know what is even more funny?. You actually had the nerve to bring up my conversations about Bible interpretations when you are now without thousands of years time difference, without a different language, no change in culture trying to beg that the words don’t mean what they actually mean and still mean in the English dictionary AND in usage.
ROFL….does neuro slip something in all of your breakfast cereals to get your cognitive disabilities to shut down so you can write such intellectually dishonest nonsense
I’d take breakfast to the pharmacy and have that checked out
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Mike, keep talking. .. err. .. writing. The more we read, the more you sound exactly like Kathy; you know, the ‘advancing atheist agenda’ mantra.
P.S. This is not a good thing.
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You actually had the nerve to bring up my conversations about Bible interpretations when you are now without thousands of years time difference, without a different language, no change in culture trying to beg that the words don’t mean what they actually mean and still mean in the English dictionary AND in usage.
I had the nerve to bring it up because that’s exactly what you’ve done. I didn’t bring up your interpretation. I brought up the fact that you read words into the scriptures that aren’t even there and then berate others for doing the same thing when it doesn’t fit your narrative(i.e. some of the group ran ahead to tell, while others stayed behind, etc.) Nowhere in the scripture does it say that, but you insert it because…well..that must be the answer.
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Ruth your attempt at mind reading to save your comrade is a flop like all your other points
(kids reclaimed Britain yet?) .
I don’t have kids. But if I did they’d be half Brit. We’re working on it.
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@Ron
LMAO
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“Mike, you are not thinking. The hyper-religoius tend to have a great influence over those who are not. Remember the prophet of the SDA church? She sustained a head injury after getting hit with a rock, soon became hyper-religious and in a very short amount of time gained a following of 25 million. That’s just one person.”
Neuro I am sorry but for someone who talks about neuroscience you just betray a total lack of logic and thought. You also suffer from Nate’s issue in that you do very little research. I happened to have had a number of SDA friends. I’ve been to their churches and you can go for months and not hear anything about Ellen G White. The truth is that SDA churches are for the most part mainline Bible believing Christians (unlike Mormons). their growth can in large part be attributed to that fact as I have known baptists to move to SD and back because of the very few main differences (sabbath adherence being the biggest).
The idea that she hit her head had some visions and 25 million went solely off her Visions and nothing else is just vast stupidity on your part.
Go do some more research. You don’t have any more feet to shoot
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“You know what is even more funny?. You actually had the nerve to bring up my conversations about Bible interpretations when you are now without thousands of years time difference, without a different language, no change in culture trying to beg that the words don’t mean what they actually mean and still mean in the English dictionary AND in usage.” – mike
well, maybe you’re not lying, i’m thinking now that you’re that mentally handicapped girl… It’s okay sweetie, it’ll be okay. And twist ending are the best.
But the bible was translated into english by actual greek and hebrew scholars. The greek and hebrew interlinear bibles that you research do not make you a greek or hebrew scholar and they are still transliterated and translated by actual greek and hebrews scholars.
Despite their scholarship in these areas, you claim they often got it wrong, yet you havent been able to back up your claims with any proof. You seem to be saying that lay people cannot truly understand the bible and that they require oversight and rule over what they should believe. I havent seen you list one translation by a real scholar that supports any of the claims you’ve made, so again, and this should be easy for the dimmest of wits to understand, it makes more sense to rely on the verified translations of all the bible translations than to rely on the frantic claim of a shown liar such as yourself…
one of the more resent being, “I knew what WIlliam meant because he wrote exactly what he meant ‘Born a Christian’…”
Still spreading this blatant lie because you want to pretend that things such as a turn of phrase dont exist, and even if you truly didnt catch that, i still clarified my point twice before now.
You dont even want to accept the possibility of a typo or misspeaking, because you need something here to hang your hat on; because you have no legitimate point, and you’re hoping that lies like this and tangents about the mentally handicapped will distract everyone from that fact – except it doesnt work.
seriously, your continual attempts at this are only hurting you. I dont like fighting children and I get no pleasure out of arguing with half wits, so i hope you take a step back and reevaluate your tactics. I take no pleasure in you making spectacle of yourself.
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“I don’t have kids. But if I did they’d be half Brit. We’re working on it.”
LOL I got to admit I like that come back. Touche
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“well, maybe you’re not lying, i’m thinking now that you’re that mentally handicapped girl… It’s okay sweetie, it’ll be okay. ”
Oh wow actually caught this …but sorry stopped and kept ignoring after so have no idea what other tripe you said . That was enough
So now we have TWO people on this blog so scummy that they are throwing around mental illness as an insult and ad homs.
TO ALL: Take a bow! what a high moralled community you have here!
This sick soul is actually trying to throw my somewhat adopted mentally handicapped little girl in my face.
Sorry Sparky. She’s got you beat in the moral and intellect department. I’d rather be her than you any day of the week. So thanks for the compliment
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“I don’t have kids. But if I did they’d be half Brit. We’re working on it.”
LOL I got to admit I like that come back. Touche
These things can take thousands of years, y’know?
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I hate to admit it, but I have to agree with Mike about this:
We might say what we want to each other, challenge each other’s mental capacity, ability, agility, and even their sanity; we might call each other names, behave rudely toward one another and get frustrated and aggravated, but we are all supposedly adults here.
Talking about their children, family members and loved ones should be off limits IMHO. I don’t think it’s a good reflection on us, especially in light of the fact that Mike says he’s caring for this child who is not his own, to be making crude remarks about it.
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“So now we have TWO people on this blog so scummy that they are throwing around mental illness as an insult and ad homs.” – mike
yeah, I can be a real jerk sometimes – I dont deny it. I wasn’t bothered by your vitriol toward to Neuro, and I didnt think this was any worse that what you’ve done, so I can agree, there are at least 2 here that are scum – you and i
except i can admit that and the fact that I’m not a christian.
You’re “sooo outraged” and “shocked” by my statements after first saying things you have. in addition to being scum, you’re also a hypocrite.
…and you’re still avoiding the actual point of this blog by engaging in these side points.
I’m jerk a lot of the time. You are too as well as an idiot. I’m honest about that and you’re not. the bible is compilation of some ridiculous claims of men. are there any facts that I left out?
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“I had the nerve to bring it up because that’s exactly what you’ve done. I didn’t bring up your interpretation. I brought up the fact that you read words into the scriptures that aren’t even there and then berate others for doing the same thing when it doesn’t fit your narrative”
Nope. I didn’t. I just brought historical facts of usage and meaning that your and yours don’t like because it caused your latest weak contradiction claim crumble. I invented none of those facts either …sorry (well not really). Maybe you don’t understand the issues but no reason to lie about it Ruth. And hey if you what to debate me on it. try your best. Can’t do worse than William
Meanwhile what have you attempted to do? Lets see
“Born Christian”
claim I know that the words don’t mean what they mean IN our culture and in the original language (English) spoken what? 24-48 hours ago
Sorry but you are such a hypocrite ruth. If you really believe that the words don’t means what they do then you would have to concede that sometimes words have a meaning beyond their translation and dictionary usage but here you are in full blown out hypocrisy claiming that I wrongfully added words AND that I should Know in WIlliams sentence to add words
Does it hurt being in such a pretzel shape?
“Nowhere in the scripture does it say that, but you insert it because…well..that must be the answer.”
total nonsense. the bible does not record most motions, head movements every time someone walked in and out of a room, interim travel etc. thats the whole point why contradictions cannot be constructed out of what is not said in regard to where people were. Most of the time their specific location is never recorded. As matter of fact that doesn’t even happen in most literature to day so its even more nonsense on your part.
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