You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
” No, Mike, you’re the one who has proven that to be the case. The fact that you can’t see it is sad.”
NO ARch!! that is not how you do it. Its like this
oooooommmm! Ooooom !
Krauss would be very upset that you took the time from meditation on the white everything out of nothing fairy worship to write to a skeptical reviewer. lol
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“The difference is, you commented on something I wrote on my own blog, not here. ”
Oh what a big difference. Your text shows in comments mine shows in a post. You got me there Kk what can I say? After all every one knows the words being placed in a post makes them have a different meaning from them being in comments.
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William,
““And it’s much more likely that a religion based on hate/ evil is LYING.. love is TRUTH.” – kathy
so, like if there was a religion where the “god” commanded its people to slaughter entire cities and nations of men, women and children and on a few occasions only save the young virgin girls to keep for themselves, then we are safe to assume that religion is likely a lie?”
Again, William, you are referring to a specific time with specific people and circumstances. All part of a SPECIFIC plan by the Creator of all, including those whom He commanded to be destroyed. Which SHOULD be enough to tell you that you are in no place to judge Him.. again the Creator of all.. including YOU. There is nothing wrong with questioning these things.. but when you think you are in a position to judge Him, you are deluded by the very pride you’ve been warned about. You, as with all atheists, don’t know your place. You are a created being. You have a Creator, whether you like it or not. He’s given you an explanation for why you are here and he’s given you stories for you to learn from.. but instead, you use those stories to judge Him. When YOUR judgment day comes, you might just be given the answers that have been hidden from you, but then it will be too late for you.
And you might also be asked on that day, why you chose to focus on those things that God did “wrong” and never on the things He did for you and all of humanity? You might be asked why you couldn’t just trust God since He’s done so much for you, why you couldn’t just give Him the benefit of the doubt? …why you couldn’t just accept the answers that you did have instead of reject them time after time, all of them…. why you had to judge Him instead.. while you lived your life that He gave you, and all the good things in it that you were blessed with.
You might be asked,.. did you have a better explanation for your existence? And you will have to answer “no”.. (I don’t think lying will work here).. were you aware of any other faith with comparable evidence for it’s truth where the Son’s life was sacrificed for you, so you could have eternal life?
And.. was there one single bit of scientific evidence that indicated that you weren’t a created being with a Creator?
I’m asking all these questions now.. while you still have a chance.. on judgment day, again, you probably won’t be asked any questions at all. But, you’ll get all the answers that you demanded while you were busy judging God.. instead of humbling yourselves before Him.
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Ruth,
“As for Islam being a religion of hate and evil… all you have to do is reference their actual scriptures.
Kathy, anybody can take scriptures out of context. That’s what Christians say when the criminal aspects of it are pointed out. Muslims would say the same thing. They have answers for all of that just like you have answers for the Bible.”
So do Mormons.. Mormons will insist that Jesus’ death on the cross is enough to get us into Heaven. And they will ALSO tell you that good works are also required in order to get into Heaven. And you say, but then Jesus’ death is not enough to save us and they’ll say, AGAIN, that Jesus’ death IS enough to get us into Heaven.. and AGAIN tell you that good works are also required or you cannot get into Heaven. When you refer to their actual scripture, it’s more than clear that good works are required… “all that you can do”.. are the exact words.
So, yeah, I’m well aware of the other faiths and their “same” answers.. they’re not the same.. they are lies. And if you’ll note.. my link stated that Muslims are commanded to lie if necessary. Also a Mormon “commandment”. No commandment or “pass” to lie in the Bible. It’s all there Ruth, in the link, with the verses cited. Yes, context is key.. but so is HONEST objectivity.
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@Ruth, “Hayden, dude, what translation of the Bible you been readin’? Is it the Thomas Jefferson Bible?.. Seriously, though, can you point to where you’re getting that from?”
LOL. Sorry, it is not funny but it is kinda. I’m not a Bible worshiper so I don’t care what the Bible says.
@”The BIRD” No sooner do I warn you about the Asatru than you start picking on the Aborigines!
Beautiful creation story actually. Did you notice she created the fish first and then the birds? That should make a hard headed Atheist like you wonder JUST how accurate IS this story?”
“Early Christian missionaries, as was their quaint custom, sought to discredit Freyja by demonizing her,… Gotta love those mischievous little Christians!”
Now for a total flipflop, since the others may not catch it.
What do I care about those friggin pagans?
Flipflop again, ” I’ve had lover’s spats like that, haven’t you?”
The Japanese, Bird? Really? Is no one above your ridicule?
Now in case my sarcasm confused anyone, I very much liked all of these stories. Thank you for sharing them. And of course middle age Christians sucked. Ultimate power corrupts ultimately. Plus, they were douche-bags.
Later from “The BIRD,” I just like saying that. “The B-I-R-D” “Many Christian were killed in Nero’s time, simply for being Christian – they weren’t given a choice of “renounce or die!” just killed, because Nero felt that Christian were upsetting Roman society, which they probably were.”
Actually he was a consummate politician. He just needed someone to blame for the fire that had broken out. He just chose the Christians because they were nobodies.
@NeuroNotes, “It was fundamentalists who were responsible for my partner’s death because they gave him very poor counsel, discouraged him from seeing a doctor when he was having hallucinations, encouraged him to go through a deliverance because he was told he had demons.”
I had a friend, we’ll call him Z. One day at his house he told me he saw dark figures peeking at him from around corners and they would slip away when he looked up at them. He could only see them out of the corner of his eye. One morning he woke up and something would not let him up. He was stuck on the couch and could not move until the other people in the house woke and began to move around. He was very afraid. Now Z was a big scary former thug who now had kids and was trying to become a better man so him being scared was unusual. I told him, “Well spirits are real, so you are not crazy.” Then I asked him, “Are you on any medication?” He replied very honestly, “I have been diagnosed with bi-polar disorder, slight schizophrenia and mild depression BUT I am out of meds. I’m trying to get them refilled.” I nodded and said, “OK. What you are seeing COULD be real but until we get you back on your meds, we can’t be sure it isn’t just your condition.” He agreed that was the best way to proceed. He got his meds refilled and he stopped seeing things. All was fine. That was two years ago and he has had another beautiful baby girl since then and is doing well.
My point is, I’m as spiritual nutty as they come but even I know you gotta have your meds first and THEN deal with the spiritual.
The people that ministered to your partner were fucking morons and I am very sorry. I am sorry I could not be there for him and you.
Last note: Out of all the Atheists on this page it is funny that the one person who needs Yeshua the most is Mike. I hope He is an Atheist trying to strengthen his sides fighting lines. Because he sucks at Christianity. Of course we know he actually is a Christian because I’ve never seen an Atheist sink to such a scummy level.
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“@Ruth, ‘Hayden, dude, what translation of the Bible you been readin’?” – The Gospel According to L’il Abner.
“The Japanese, Bird? Really? Is no one above your ridicule?” what ridicule? Kathy wanted to know the origin of the universe, I’m giving it to her —
“I just like saying that. ‘The B-I-R-D’” – When was the last time you asked how I feel about it?
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“Again, William, you are referring to a specific time with specific people and circumstances. All part of a SPECIFIC plan by the Creator of all, including those whom He commanded to be destroyed.”
Kathy its pointless. Its a narrative they WANT to have . They’ll skip over 3-4 thousand years and the cross and reference a goat being killed if it makes a point they want to make to feel righteous over the Bible. It has nothing to do with reason.
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“After all every one knows the words being placed in a post makes them have a different meaning from them being in comments.”
“But then as we have seen anything goes” Though you were directing this at atheists, this seems to be your theme. You don’t have the courage to have your own blog because then people could dig up anything they see as being detrimental to you .
Why not take off your panties and put on some big boy pants (you’ll probably have to go buy some) and put up your own blog ? You already know if you behaved the way you do here on your own blog , you would have more Christians chastising you than non-believers. Real Christians , unlike you, would be raking you over the coals daily. Talk about us being judgmental , you ain’t seen nothing yet !
So now we know why you are here. You can spew your vitriol here that you couldn’t on your own blog. The Real Christians wouldn’t stand for it.
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“. Because he sucks at Christianity.”
and how would you know?
Hayden like Most Christians I make mistakes (just less than atheists) but lets face it. You can’t speak for Yeshua. You are not even a Christian. Btw his was a nice touch
“The people that ministered to your partner were fucking morons a”
thats really nice Christian vernacular 🙂
but besides that you believe the bible is a just good book and in the end everyone gets accepted to heaven as a brother. You can kid yourself all you want but thats not Christian in that it is not what Christ taught. Its just a gospel you made up in your own head that frankly is pretty close enough to atheism so why you have no qualms about it.
simple. EZ peazy
Anyway thanks for pointing this out as I had missed it before –
“@NeuroNotes, “It was fundamentalists who were responsible for my partner’s death because they gave him very poor counsel, discouraged him from seeing a doctor when he was having hallucinations, encouraged him to go through a deliverance because he was told he had demons.””
It sounds like they did give him pretty poor counsel but two things
A) that doesn’t make them and no one else responsible as no one person/group ever is for these things
B) It certainly does not justify using this person’s death as a narrative to blame all of Christianiity or even “fundamentalists” in general and to use a thinly veiled ad hom against all religious people/fundamentalist as Neuro does. taking the actions of some people and ascribing it to to a larger group has a name – its called bigotry.
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ummmm. .. .Mike. . . I’d like to remind you that you believe (among other things) that
1) A ghost impregnated a virgin
2) That god sent his own son as a human sacrifice and that it was a GOOD thing
3) That this son elevated up to heaven (in one of those ‘beam me up, Scotty moves)
. . .and then you tell Kathy, “It has nothing to do with reason”
I’m thinking, “Pot call kettle black, MUCH?”
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“A little girl came into my life that I have somewhat adopted. She’s like a daughter to me although she doesn’t live with me. She has mental issue and I have noticed that I have gotten a lot more emotional bout people throwing a round mental sickness like you deplorably do.”
Mike, 1 in 5 people in the United States has a mental disorder. 1 in 17 have severe mental disorders. The 4 I listed is in that 1 in 17 category. My partner had a mental disorder caused by a traumatic brain injury. One of the symptoms was hyper-religiosity. This is a fact. He had never been religious in his life, wasn’t even a believer, then had a . sudden religious conversion. He became obsessed with god and the bible. He thought he was chosen of god and was on a mission for god, much like the apostle Paul. Much like SDA prophet. Much like a lot of the radical fundamentalist preachers and some of their followers.
I am sorry to hear about the little girl’s mental disorder, but you throwing a hissy fit yesterday about mental disorders only serves to exacerbate the sigma of mental illness. If one of the symptoms of heart disease or diabetes was hyper-religiosity, would you have gone on your tantrum? The brain is an organ just like the pancreas and the heart. Why are you so sensitive when the brain becomes ill? Because it can sometimes affect the person’s personality and behavior? How are people going to get the necessary help when people like you stigmatize it and choose to be in denial about some of its common symptoms such as hyper-religiosity?
Bringing up this subject about hyper-religiosity is relevant to this discussion because a lot of these biblical characters exhibited the behaviors of people with psychosis. They had visions (hallucinations), just like people can have with the 4 mental disorders I mentioned. Just like my husband. Just like the prophet, Ellen White, who gained more followers in the last 100 years than Jesus and the apostle Paul in the same time frame. Think about that for a minute. Most neurologists who have extensively examined Paul’s behavior state that he had all the symptoms of temporal lobe epilepsy.
In the United States, approximately 200,000 people are diagnosed with epilepsy every years. Half of those will have temporal lobe epilepsy, the most common form of epilepsy; and there are many more who haven’t been diagnosed because it is misdiagnosed often for reasons I noted earlier by experts. Up to 10 percent of those with TLE will become hyper-religious and believe they were chosen to be on a mission for the god of their culture. That’s just one neurological disorder. You do the math.
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“You don’t have the courage to have your own blog because then people could dig up anything they see as being detrimental to you .”
Any more poor arguments KK? seriously? need to boost up yourself and think you have courage because you filled out some forms on WordPress and created a blog. Thats courage to you? Wow go talk to neuro I am sure she will blame that insane statement on your past theism
and sorry I participate in Christian blogs regularly and they don’t rake me over the coals. heres the odd thing.I don’t have to get into things that I do here even on non Christian blogs and communities. I participate in some atheist communities as well and though we obviously do not agree (and as most atheists are online – are a rude bunch like your hypocritically beloved Ark and Arch) theres far less hypocrisy and lying that goes on with them and as a result I get into far less with them on that than I do here. Heres where they have you beat.
they don’t know much about christianity and they don’t claim to (you don’t but pretend to)
They don;t pretend to be open when they are not.
They have no missionary zeal like Kathy’s presence exposed about getting Christians to recant their faith (and frankly if they did it would be less insidious because they’d be upfront about it).
and heres the strangest thing they are not anywhere as close minded to the benefits of religion (though overall thinking its negative). they’ll accept a point and even admit when its rational.
Oh and the other last thing is they don’t pretend to more moral and elite in character as you do – even in the face of lying to churches, being hypocritical about demanding evidence and not needing it for white everything out of nothing fairies and being total hypocrites when it comes to who among them is vitriolic and who isn’t based on adherence to their atheism
Pretty much all vitriol is admitted and they have no issues about answers from either side. You however will be dismissive, vitriolic, rude and then beg that the answers you get back must always be soft and sweet with no stern truth
Those are the reasons we have the exchanges we do. I guess the short version is they are just better and more honest than you guys. and yes thats Mike talking about some atheists 🙂 go figure.
Apparently those who CLAIM to have been Christians just seem to make for poorer atheists.
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Phew…still going on?
Come in , Nate. New post!
I am surprised the atheists haven’t run off and crucified themselves?
Wotcha, Mike! Still being a d’head I see?
Good for you!
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Mike, if you are better accepted, have your points acknowledged as having merit, prefer the company on other blogs and find them to be more open-minded, it really begs the question, “Why are you on THIS blog?”
Isn’t there a word for someone who enjoys torture?
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“A little girl came into my life that I have somewhat adopted. She’s like a daughter to me although she doesn’t live with me.” – I feel sorry for her, not because of her illness, for which I hope she gets the help she needs, but because of her association with Mike, DEFinately NOT the kind of help the poor child needs.
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“Come in , Nate. New post!” – Why, when this one is going so swimmingly –?
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@Carmen
Yes, there is. Dickhead. But I’m not allowed to call him that anymore, so I won’t
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“A) that doesn’t make them and no one else responsible as no one person/group ever is for these things”
Bull. Chew on this Mike. The largest Christian denomination in the world, the Roman Catholic Church has stigmatized mental illness and won’t even allow those with epilepsy to become priests. They promote exorcism and make loads of money off of mental illness. Last year the Catholic Church’s top exorcist, Father Gabriele Amorth, claiming to have cast out one hundred and sixty thousand ‘demons’, called for all priests to be allowed to conduct the ritual.
J. de Tonquedec (1886-1962), a psychologist and the official exorcist of the diocese of Paris for over 20 years, doubted that he ever found a real case. He wrote:
“Exorcism is an impressive ceremony, capable of acting effectively on the unconscious of a sick person. The adjurations addressed to the demon, the sprinkling of holy water, the stole passed around the patient’s neck, the repeated signs of the cross and so forth, are very capable of creating a diabolical mythomania in word and deed in a psyche already weak. Call the devil and you will see him; or rather not him, but a portrait made of the sick person’s idea of him. It is for this reason that certain priests, due to their inconsiderate and imprudent practice of exorcising, create, confirm and encourage the very disorders that they want to suppress.”
————-
The toll of this barbaric and primitive superstition? —> 368,379 people killed, 306,096 injured and over $2,815,931,000 in economic damages in the last several decades.
http://whatstheharm.net/exorcisms.html
Do a Google of “deliverance ministries” who claim they cast out demons There are 10’s of thousands of these ministries across the globe. These are protestant Christian ministries. Combine that with the RCC.
I absolutely have the right to blame Christianity for such inhumane practices and for the death of my partner. They are following the teachings in the NT. Reminder, Mike, you have yet to provide verifiable evidence of your Christian god. Zip notta.
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“Ruth William made his point pretty clear. he said born Christian. You can try and he can try and spin it but we all know what that means. that bv virtue of birth he was a Christian. He spilled the beans that we were right all along.” – mike
now see, this is blatantly dishonest, but you know that. It was dishonest when you first mentioned it, but i gave you the benefit of the doubt and corrected my phrasing after explaining why I phrased it the way i did.
The sad thing for you is that this is more than just being dishonest, it’s an admission that you have no real footing and must resort to this sort of idiotic grandstanding because without it, you really have nothing to else to argue about. You largely ignore most of my real points and focus more on petty things or completely invented issues like this one here.
Furthermore, you’re shameless dishonesty is in direct contrast to the core moral teachings of the religion you claim to be defending. Not only is your abrasive nature annoying enough as it is, you now completely, and repetitively, demonstrate that you lack the most basic understanding of the New Testament’s teachings – and in so doing, unwittingly turn people away from you say is the truth – because rational, sane and caring people do not want to be the way you portray yourself as a “christian.”
your position on this issue is worse than those you’d criticize for listing Proverbs 16:4 of the king james version as proof that god of the bible is the father evil.
and besides, no real person misunderstood me, and if they did, my following clarification would have resolved it, so you being so dishonest now only creates sympathy for me and serves to discredit yourself.
But it’s okay, i forgive you. I have forgiven you easier and faster than your god would have. I wonder though, does that make me more merciful?
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Hey you all want to blame Christians and christianity for someone committing suicide and imply anyone who has faith is mentally ill just to make it a point for your atheist agenda and want to call any come back to that sick then hey you have your own sickness to deal with. get better soon
I don’t think anyone here is/was saying that Christianity was to blame for someone committing suicide. It was a particular brand of Christianity that thinks people’s mental illness is caused by demons. Instead of encouraging people to seek professional help, they discourage it and offer “deliverance”. Victoria acknowledges in all her statements clearly that her husband already had a traumatic brain injury, and subsequent mental problems, that led up to this incident. She is not blaming Christians/Christianity entirely for the situation.
You are reading your own meaning into her words. But that kind of Christianity the world could do without. If she dedicated her entire life to opposing that brand of Christianity and advocating for people who suffer from these types of injuries and mental health issues to go to a medical professional and not a religious zealot then she has done the world a service.
I don’t know anyone who isn’t touched by mental illness, who isn’t either diagnosed with a mental illness or loves someone who does. You don’t corner the market on that emotion.
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“Ruth William made his point pretty clear. he said born Christian. You can try and he can try and spin it but we all know what that means. that bv virtue of birth he was a Christian. He spilled the beans that we were right all along.” – mike
Just know this Mike, you have been proven wrong on many points here and rather than accept that and acknowledge it you continue to take virtual swings at proving yourself right. You knew full well what William meant – and it was NOT that people can be born Christians. Yet you take these tiny points and hang onto them like a dog with a bone because you think you can twist it into your favor. You’ve done no such thing.
I’ve watched the back and forth between you. You read things into the scripture that aren’t there because, aha, it must be that way because that’s what makes your version fit. But if someone else reads something into scripture that isn’t there that doesn’t fit then they must be wrong. There’s an awful lot of reading into scripture on both sides. It’s just that the only one you find acceptable is the one you want to be true.
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Thank you, Ruth. I do blame the teachings in the Christian bible, and any Christian denomination who believe in demon possession, exorcism and its equivalent, deliverance. That is a majority of Christians. And just as the late psychologist and priest J. de Tonquedec stated, “the practice of exorcising, create, confirm and encourage the very disorders that they want to suppress.” It should be illegal, but because its religion, and practiced by the largest Christian religion in the world, they get away with being inhumane.
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Kathy, you said,
“Again, William, you are referring to a specific time with specific people and circumstances. All part of a SPECIFIC plan by the Creator of all, including those whom He commanded to be destroyed. Which SHOULD be enough to tell you that you are in no place to judge Him.. again the Creator of all.. including YOU…”
and course I was, just as you were doing in referring to muslims who killed others for allah’s will. And this still ignores the fact that the majority of muslims are peaceful. It also ignores the fact that many other religions (who arent violent) have martyrs too.
You’re saying the the bible has more credentials, but when pressed on your circumstantial evidence (if it can even be called that) you fall back on jesus dying for our sins. How do you not understand that this silly and circular reasoning?
I dont believe jesus died for my sins. i dont believe is was any more god than the santa clause you were talking about earlier. So when I ask for evidence of such, “martyrs” and “jesus” just dont meet the real requirements of evidence.
And muslims would ask you, how will you answer allah on the day of judgement, after he sent you his prophets?
these arent good arguments of yours… really.
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Hayden, thank you for your comment, for caring, and for using common sense and reason regarding your friend. If more people did, there wouldn’t be so many deaths and injuries caused by superstition spread by the Roman Catholic Church and the majority of Christian fundamentalist-evangelical denominations.
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“Again, William, you are referring to a specific time with specific people and circumstances. All part of a SPECIFIC plan by the Creator of all, including those whom He commanded to be destroyed.”
Kathy its pointless. Its a narrative they WANT to have . They’ll skip over 3-4 thousand years and the cross and reference a goat being killed if it makes a point they want to make to feel righteous over the Bible. It has nothing to do with reason.” – mike
I’m happy to discuss it, and I don’t have to skip over anything. Kathy’s trying to prove her religion by her religious book. It’s not better than saying, “the bible is true, because it says it’s true.”
It’s like what parents tell their children about santa clause, “if you dont believe, you wont get presents…” The belief they’re trying to instill is based on fear (fear of not getting gifts) and not on real knowledge or rational thought. Very much like religion.
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