You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
““white fairy everything out of nothing” – the hypothesis of an expert in quantum mechanics vs an invisible magic man who lives in the sky, concocted by Bronze Age priests in search of job security – hmmm, who to believe, who to believe –?”
🙂 the one that might actually be verified one day as opposed to the one that cannot be.
Wheres my prize?
And nice try but Krauss has no scientific hypothesis. IN order to have one of those you have to have a means to test and everything out of absolutely nothing is less testable than God.
but don;t worry about it Arch just say
Ooommmmm…..Ooooomm! and it will all be alright
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“You crossed a line! To type something so disgusting and immoral to another human being about the loss of someone so incredibly close to her is vile, wicked and EVIL!”
Charity I don’t care about your selective moral judgements anymore than I care about your beliefs about evil or whatever imaginary line you hsve drawn in your head. The only thing I would have some reservations about is the comment about males close to her but she assured me that that was long behind her and I have no intention of
A) ignoring her mocking about mental illness since I have someone close to me who has some issues and I consider her using that along with a smilie afterwards confirming her enjoyment at the innuendo as pretty vile.
B) withdrawing the comment about husband having issues beforehand. You all being quite fine with indicting religion and christians as being responsible for his death but then turn around and get upset when there is a counter only shows your hypocrisy. Heres an idea to both you and victoria. if you don’t want the issue explored then stop going online trying to blame Christians for it and using it as one of your arguments. Mark it down as tragic moment in life with all kinds of possible reasons but stop trying to use it to advance your atheist agenda. If not you can all cry evil crossing the trip wires in your mind all you want. you open the door for an exploration of what frankly shouldn’t even be part of your narrative if you consider it so personal and off limits.
But then as we have seen anything goes as long as its to attack theists and Christianity
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I love you, too, Charity, and thank you.
Nate, my sincere apologies that things got so heated, and if you think it’s best that I discontinue my involvement in this post, then I understand. You can drop me an email. Arch has my addy.
And Mike, I apologize that you got offended. I was simply pointing out all the variables that lead people becoming religious and not all of those variables I mentioned were related to mental disorders. But I was not mocking mental illness. The wink was directed at you because I was taken aback at your comment. You responded like a troll. So yeah, I got my answer. You’re not in your right mind if you think trolling is normal behavior.
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“And yes, nobody in their right mind would be so cruel, but besides that you completely missed the point of my question.”
The point of your question was mockery. You can lie about it all you want. Your barf afterwards telling me thanks for answering your question with a smilie (as if I had confirmed something of my own mental illness) was proof of your enjoyment in that mockery.
we both know it no matter how many more times you lie about it and while your cronies are claiming outrage I might as well make mine known. I consider and considered that as vile and since i have someone very close to me with mental issues very personal which is why you got one of the answers you did. But this is far from your first time. You use mental illness as a constant denigration and adhom against theists. Its your MO and the fact that you use it the way you do is actually an admission that you know its not true or you are not a very nice person. Why?
because people who think others are mentally ill who have any soul do not go around throwing it in their face and using it as an insult and a point of their argument. If they really believed the other party was mentally ill they would hardly mention it and certainly not use it as a club to swing at those who disagree with them.
the fact that in your communications with Kathy and me you move back and forth between directly mocking beliefs to mocking theists sanity just shows how fraudulent you are. No mental health professional would think they were getting anywhere or doing anything good by mocking a patient.
I suggest you take a look at your own mental state. You seem oblivious to your own issues.
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You know what you are, Mike? Yeah, you do, don’t you –?
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“But then as we have seen anything goes as long as its to attack theists and Christianity”
Turn it around Mike and it fits you and Kathy perfectly.
I used to compliment you by calling you delusional. Sick is the only word that now comes to mind.
Only a sick person could make the vicious personal attacks you made to Victoria tonight.
@Carmen, I take no pride in having to call Mike out on his heinous attack, but it had to be done. We can all disagree with each other without stooping as low as he did. There is no room for people like him on any blog.
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Methinks you doth protest too much. . .
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” But I was not mocking mental illness. The wink was directed at you because I was taken aback at your comment. ”
Like I said Victoria lie all you want. the question you claimed to have got an answer for could only relate to the questions you asked which yes were mostly mental issue insinuations. Any rational adult knows that a certain line of questioning is insinuation and I know you knew exactly what you were doing. Your dishonesty is breathtaking but I’m getting used to it.
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. .. that last comment was directed at Mike. . .
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Mike, I’m sure that nothing I say will make a bit of difference. You’ve made your mind up, but to anyone else who may have not understood why I included those four mental-neurological disorders in the list of all the other variables I mention, it was because those are the four most common disorders that have hyper-religious symptoms. I’ve posted this before and I’ll post it again.
“Hyperreligiosity is a major feature of mania, obsessive-compulsive disorder, schizophrenia, temporal-lobe epilepsy and related disorders, in which the ventromedial dopaminergic systems are highly activated and exaggerated attentional or goal-directed behavior toward extrapersonal space occurs.” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16439158
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“Only a sick person could make the vicious personal attacks you made to Victoria tonight.”
Hey you all want to blame Christians and christianity for someone committing suicide and imply anyone who has faith is mentally ill just to make it a point for your atheist agenda and want to call any come back to that sick then hey you have your own sickness to deal with. get better soon
P.S. Meanwhile ease up on mocking mom’s beliefs for entertainment on your blog.
Thats not too stable either. Hope my mom reaches that age. I won’t be telling anecdotal stories about her to mock her beliefs behind her back if she does. Also understand theology better. Providence (look it up) allowed for her prayers to be answered.
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“P.S. Meanwhile ease up on mocking mom’s beliefs for entertainment on your blog.”
I have no idea what you’re talking about. And about Christianity and neurological disorders, this is from the Dana Foundation — neurologists/neurological research website:
“People with seizures look like everyone else when they are not having a seizure, and seizures are not contagious. Yet, as far back in history as we know, people with seizure disorders have been viewed with fear. In many civilizations, they have been shunned; in others, they have been thought to have a special ability and be in communication with higher powers—good gods in the case of the Romans, the devil in the case of early Christianity.
The early Greeks called epilepsy “the sacred disease,” but it later became known as “the scourge of Christ,” probably as a result of the passage in the Gospels in which Jesus casts out an unclean spirit from a young boy. The boy’s father says (in the Gospel according to Luke), “Teacher, I implore you, look on my son…Behold, a spirit seizes him, and he suddenly cries out; it confuses him so that he foams at the mouth; and it departs from him with great difficulty, bruising him.”
To this day, many ordinary people still believe patients with epileptic seizures are “possessed,” and a person with seizures is forbidden to take Holy Orders (become a priest) in the Roman Catholic Church.” http://www.dana.org/Cerebrum/Default.aspx?id=39178
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“Providence (look it up) allowed for her prayers to be answered” – Interesting that your god didn’t heal her —
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“I won’t be telling anecdotal stories about her to mock her beliefs behind her back if she does.”
Your ignorance is only exceeded by your sickness. My Mother and I have had numerous conversations about this. After I posted this story about her, I again had a conversation concerning this. I’m doing NOTHING behind her back ! I happen to love my mother very much.
I don’t regret telling the story because it was meant to be humorous . I did go ahead later and explained the default settings to her. She laughed with me, but still maintained that God created the default settings for people like her.
Do you want to ridicule anyone else here tonight Mike without having a clue what you are talking about ? You seem to be very good at this ! You are on a roll !
Mike, ““But then as we have seen anything goes”
You are soooooo right about this !
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It’s quite evident now that I’ve seen your “Little Evil Mikey Show” why you are always asking personal details of your adversaries and don’t share your own. This way you can reach the lowest point in your comments and hit below the belt until your arm falls off.
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“but to anyone else who may have not understood why I included those four mental-neurological disorders in the list of all the other variables I mention,”
Spin it Victoria! Work it. but really? 🙂 I must admit I find your lying fascinating at the moment. Just four insinuating questions? Let take a look at all the leading derogatory insinuations
” did you find Jesus in prison like so many do?”
You a criminal?: lol (1) (notice the so many as if that makes up a sizable percentage of believers world wide)
“After an alcohol /and or drug binge, like so many do?”
You a drug addict? lol (2) (notice the so many again as if its a sizable number)
“Did you have a sudden religious conversion (clinical term) caused by a neurological disorder?”
you mentally ill? (3)
” Did you have a traumatic brain injury?”
Lobotomy anyone? (4)
” Have you been diagnosed with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder”
Mentally ill in another way? (5)
” Schizophrenia”
are there two of you in your mind? 🙂 (6)
” Mania,”
you manic (7)
Temporal Lobe Epilepsy?”
More mentally il? (8)
ROFL. that your group can’t see the sheer number of insinuating question just makes YOU ALL some sick puppies
You have mastered the tactic of ad hom so perfectly you seem to believe your own nonsense that putting it in a question (which come on everyone and his dog whose been reading knows ME KNOWS i would never answer – so you knew it was for rhetorical effect) absolves you from the vileness of using mental illness to further your atheist agenda.
and yes if you can twist things like that to suit your own narrative then its fair game to ask when you accuse christians of driving people to suicide if some of that same kind of thinking e might not have played into the issue rather than it all being the fault of big l bad mentally ill Christianity. I However don’t buy into the ideology that such complex issues can be blamed on any one person or scapegoat like you do.
Lie some more Neuro. alas the fascination is wearing off. Time for a movie
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“After I posted this story about her, I again had a conversation concerning this. I’m doing NOTHING behind her back ! I happen to love my mother very much.”
Ken, I thought he was directing that at me, but now I know what this is in reference to. I read that post and I saw love and empathy expressed in your post. It was humorous, yes, but instead of you explaining that the real reason why your mother’s TV channels came back on, you allowed her to believe that her prayers had been answered. It was a sweet story.
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Mike, all of those are common reasons why people have religious conversions besides indoctrination. Arch also shared data along those same lines — that people who generally live in areas of the world where there is more stability and well being, their citizens are generally the least religious.
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Thank you Victoria. It is very plain to see there is no level too low that Mike won’t stoop to make himself feel superior.
Victoria, ” I read that post and I saw love and empathy expressed in your post.”
I can only imagine how Mike would treat his mother if she were an atheist .
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“Mike, all of those are common reasons why people have religious conversions besides indoctrination. ”
Victoria I really don;t care what your rationalizations are. Anyone could give a long song and dance about why their insinuations are legit. The only reason I am even answering again is because unlike you I have to deal with a higher power not just what suits me. A little girl came into my life that I have somewhat adopted. She’s like a daughter to me although she doesn’t live with me. She has mental issue and I have noticed that I have gotten a lot more emotional bout people throwing a round mental sickness like you deplorably do.
So if I am honest (and I am required to be) my response to you was based on some of that emotion. the strange thing about is that what I will now apologize for isn’t even what your comrades have complained about which I stand behind unapologetically but the comment about men near you coming to a demise. That was a bit too much based on the anger of seeing you throw around mental illness in a way to suit yourself and your atheistic agenda.
So if I had it to type again I wouldn’t and you have my apologies for not responding better to your most definitely insensitive mockery
the comment about picking them (men)? that your comrades are claiming all kinds of stuff about (like I care)? No that was legit and not based on anger. I have thought previous to this that in your rush to blame Christianity you overlook everything else and I do know women (and men ) that tend to have the same outcomes because of selection and even their own issues- sometimes that only shows up in certain circumstances. We don’t know why one person snaps one way another person with the same injuries doesn’t go the same way although I am sure you will claim to know.
So no apologies of that and your comrade can make of it what they will and the fact that no matter how you lie I know by the sheer evidence of your own words and smilies you were definitely using mental illness to insinuate and advance your argument. You’ve read me long enough to know I would never answer such foolish questions so it was all for rhetoric and we both know it.
Like i said lie on but clearing up the only thing I needed to it won’t matter to me.
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“The only reason I am even answering again is because unlike you I have to deal with a higher power not just what suits me.”
You certainly haven’t behaved here like a Higher Power has had any influence on you .
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“It’s quite evident now that I’ve seen your “Little Evil Mikey Show” why you are always asking personal details of your adversaries and don’t share your own.’
KK you are such an accomplished liar. Hopefully you are a lawyer and making good money off it? Where am I always asking for personal details of my adversaries? LOl …you will make up anything to claim against your arch rival eh? As for the piece you had – sorry you said in your very own post you had not shared it with her at the time you wrote it. What you did afterwards doesn’t change that.
My mother is not even near to that age and I would not want to write a piece about her basically using it to advance my agenda or make some point about how stupid her beliefs are (and that WAS one of the point of your post). You want to make character points about what I write here?Great. Then I can make points about what you write.
I’d be above using my mom as an object lesson.
The amusing thing I have learned about atheists on this board (at least the ones ahem…born Christian 🙂 ) is that you not only believe you can be moral without God but you have actually deluded yourselves into believing you are more moral than people with God.
Nate taught me first with his truly stupefying claim to the effect – I would be nothing but honest and straight as a person well errr except for the time I made up a lie and a detailed plan to deceive an entire congregation and stood before them and sold it to them looking into their eyes – and then most of you over the last few months have backed up the superior in morality delusion. More moral than theists and Christians? and Neuro says we are given to delusions?
Its……..so…….hilarious. 🙂 🙂
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“You certainly haven’t behaved here like a Higher Power has had any influence on you”
thats the beauty of the higher power KK. 🙂 He renders your lowly opinions meaningless and your claim of being able to judge on his behalf a thing of pure laughter.
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“you not only believe you can be moral without God but you have actually deluded yourselves into believing you are more moral than people with God. ” – No, Mike, you’re the one who has proven that to be the case. The fact that you can’t see it is sad.
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“You want to make character points about what I write here?Great. Then I can make points about what you write.”
The difference is, you commented on something I wrote on my own blog, not here. OH ! I forgot , you don’t have the courage to have your OWN blog.
This should actually be a prerequisite . If you are going to spew your vitriol on someone’s blog, you should be required to have your own.
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