You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
“I was not. But I think that the point William was trying to make is that the culture that surrounds us is Christian”
Ruth William made his point pretty clear. he said born Christian. You can try and he can try and spin it but we all know what that means. that bv virtue of birth he was a Christian. He spilled the beans that we were right all along.
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” Did you have a sudden religious conversion (clinical term) caused by a neurological disorder? Did you have a traumatic brain injury? Have you been diagnosed with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, Schizophrenia, Mania, Temporal Lobe Epilepsy? ”
Victoria I have told you before – I am not your type. I know thats pretty much your check list for a mate but I thank my stars I have never had those issues especially since, no offense not calling you a black widow or anything, I happen to like my sanity and my life and the two don’t seem to have lasted long for males in close proximity to you.
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Thank you Mike — you just answered my question. 😉
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“Thank you Mike — you just answered my question. ”
Well make sure it sticks this time. I actually answered it before but you were probably too desperately lonely to receive it . You are not my type and I am not interested.
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“The God I worship gave His life for us.” – Correction, Kathy – you have a book that SAYS that the god you worship gave his life for you, written primarily by unknown authors whose credentials can never be checked. At least be honest with yourself.
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“no offense not calling you a black widow or anything, I happen to like my sanity and my life and the two don’t seem to have lasted long for males in close proximity to you.”
Well Mike, nobody in their right mind would be so cruel to say such a thing.
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“Well Mike, nobody in their right mind would be so cruel to say such a thing.”
Nobody in their right mind would take mental illness questions and attempt to mock people with it if they were indeed a mental heath expert. If you really are complaining about the come back you got after that long line of questions meant to mock you are most definitely unbalanced.
And by the way of you can indict all christians and Christianity as being responsible for your husband’s demise why is it off the table to suggest that maybe you picked people with issues?
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“you have a book that SAYS that the god you worship gave his life for you, written primarily by unknown authors whose credentials can never be checked. ”
ah but that beats the white fairy everything out of nothing which no one could even claim to have seen doesn’t it? 🙂
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“Nobody in their right mind would take mental illness questions and attempt to mock people with it”
Mike, I have never mocked neurological disorders, nor was I mocking you. That is your perception. I have provided a good bit of data in this post and another another post of Nates, and I know from the research and the vast amount of emails I get due to my advocacy work that a lot of people are not properly diagnosed with mental disorders because many symptoms manifest in a religious nature, and I’ve made that abundantly clear here. For example, and I’ve already posted this here before:
“Because of these affective, behavioral, and cognitive symptoms, patients with Complex Partial Seizures (a.k.a. Temporal Lobe Epilepsy) are frequently misdiagnosed.” Source: A Complex Presentation of Complex Partial Seizures — Official Journal of the Association of Medicine and Psychiatry http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1470651/
Secondly, I was not responsible for my late husbands car accident that caused a traumatic brain injury and neurological disorder. I wasn’t even in the car. Nor was I responsible for my ex-husband’s stroke. I was very much in love with him, and we had a strong marriage, but the stroke changed his personality dramatically. That doesn’t mean everyone who has a stroke will experience a personality change. It just depends on where in the brain the stroke occurs.
But I think that with there being zero verifiable evidence that the bible was inspired by a god, and the risked of becoming hyper-religious due to very common mental disorders and traumatic brain injuries happening every 15 seconds in America today (higher in other parts of the world) and was probably much higher during biblical times, it is worth keeping in mind of the high probability that many of the hyper-religious manifestations seen in the bible characters may have been due to neurological issues, extreme environmental conditions, and/or cultural indoctrination. You also know nothing about the biblical character’s childhood experiences, except for one where Abraham tied up his son to sacrifice him to god because he heard voices of god telling him to slaughter his son. I think you are extremely trusting and do not appear to be using any critical thinking skills when examining your belief system.
So my point and question was that if your conversion to Christianity and your very religious tone was not influenced by your culture, family and/or indoctrination by others, what was the reason you became a Christian and bow down to the Yahweh war god? Death anxiety? Fear? What?
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“And by the way of you can indict all christians and Christianity as being responsible for your husband’s demise why is it off the table to suggest that maybe you picked people with issues?”
Mike, you have proven you are evil. There is no God / Christ spirit in you if one exists.
This is not a judgement on my part, but a fact everyone can see. I still don’t believe in banning , but if you had one ounce a good in you, you would wander off to never never land.
You really are the scum of the earth and you have repeatedly displayed it here. How Kathy treats you as a fellow Christian only proves to all of us she is no better than you.
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“Did you have a sudden religious conversion (clinical term) caused by a neurological disorder?” – No, see, what it was,Neuro, was he was walking along the road on his way to Damascus —
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“And by the way of you can indict all christians and Christianity as being responsible for your husband’s demise why is it off the table to suggest that maybe you picked people with issues?”
Victoria. I am so sorry you are subjected to a comment like this. ❤
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Mike, if you are a fundamentalist, then you most likely believe in demons and Satan. It was fundamentalists who were responsible for my partner’s death because they gave him very poor counsel, discouraged him from seeing a doctor when he was having hallucinations, encouraged him to go through a deliverance because he was told he had demons. This is very common in the fundamentalist community to assume that mental disorders are demonic in nature.
But I want to give you an example of just one person who sustained a brain injury, woke up from a coma, and started having hyper-religious symptoms — believing that she was chosen by god. She was the co-founder and prophet of one of the fastest growing protestant churches in the world, the 7th Day Adventist. They have approximately 17 million members now and 25 million attending services every week.
The Adventist Church operates 7,598 schools, colleges and universities, with a total enrollment of more than 1,545,000 students and approximately 80,000 teachers.
They are the first major Christian ministry to utilize satellite uplink technology, operates 8 international channels broadcasting 24 hours a day on cable, satellite and the internet in 40 languages.
They own and run hospitals all over the world.
The church operates in 202 out of 230 countries and areas recognized by the United Nations, making it “probably the most widespread Protestant denomination.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh-day_Adventist_Church
This prophet of the SDA wrote thousands of pages saying that she was inspired by god. She had visions of god where she said she had been given messages to give to god’s people. There are volumes and volumes of books containing her writtings.
One denomination, with 25 million following all because one person sustained a traumatic brain injury. TBI changed her personality, and people became convinced she was a prophet of god.
Now if it can happen to her, it’s certainly is plausible to think that it has happened to others all throughout history.
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“Did you have a sudden religious conversion (clinical term) caused by a neurological disorder?” – No, see, what it was, Neuro, was he was walking along the road on his way to Damascus —
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From the bottom of my heart, I thank you for your comment, kcchief1 – I have been thinking the very same sentiments for much of this comment thread. The fact that Mike calls himself a Christian is contemptible. He is certainly NOT like any Christian I have ever met in real life. I’m thankful that I’ve only experienced his (and Kathy’s) kind of Christianity on-line. Again, many thanks.
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Zoe, thank you. I think Mike may have had a trigger, I don’t know. I know I’ve had a few triggers in this post and got personal when homosexual people were being treated with disrespect. But I was, in not way, treating people with mental disorders disrespectfully. I think that any time one’s religious beliefs are challenged, and especially if neurological disorders, that cause hyper-religiosity, are brought to the forefront, people may become offended and lash out.
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He fell down on the ground, flopped around like a carp for a bit, then staggered to his feet a washed-in-the-blood Christian!
“white fairy everything out of nothing” – the hypothesis of an expert in quantum mechanics vs an invisible magic man who lives in the sky, concocted by Bronze Age priests in search of job security – hmmm, who to believe, who to believe –?
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“Mike, you have proven you are evil. There is no God / Christ spirit in you if one exists.”
“Mike, I have never mocked neurological disorders, nor was I mocking you. That is your perception.”
Neuro you are lying and we both know it. Your response after my answer bolsters that position
“Thank you Mike — you just answered my question. ;)”
You are not fooling me . that was mockery plain and simple (which clean missed because I have had none of those experiences)
” I get due to my advocacy work that a lot of people are not properly diagnosed with mental disorders because many symptoms manifest in a religious nature, ”
NO research anywhere shows that all religious people or even most are mentally ill. Thats is nothing more than your device to put down religion and religious people to bolster your own atheist position. It in fact shows how unbalanced you are that you run around selectively choosing studies to bolster what is, given the high percentage of theists in this world, in professions requiring substantial logic and the history of theists who have added to science, a truly brain dead proposition.
“or was I responsible for my ex-husband’s stroke. I was very much in love with him, and we had a strong marriage, but the stroke changed his personality dramatically. ”
and we have nothing but your say so that in fact he or they didn’t have issues prior to that as many people have had strokes and it not had that affect. So hence yes it may have something to do with traits and maybe even traits that unbenownst to you you are attracted to.
Bottom line is that this little charade that you try and pull off works among the uninitiated and your small atheist Nate clan but real professionals many who i have known and gone to school with know perfectly well that neuroscience is in its infancy and there is WAAAAY to much that we don’t know about the brain that it makes just about everything we do know tentative. Your nonsense doesn’t work on me not because i don’t know about psychiatry and neuroscience but because I do know the nature of the field having at one time followed that path (as a double major) .
So sorry Victoria, IN me you have met someone online that knows when you are faking acting like we know the brain in a way that we most definitely do not yet. NO matter how much you personally believe you do it still makes you fraudulent.
” You also know nothing about the biblical character’s childhood experiences, except for one where Abraham tied up his son to sacrifice him to god because he heard voices of god telling him to slaughter his son. I think you are extremely trusting and do not appear to be using any critical thinking skills when examining your belief system.”
You are a crackput Nuero. I know of no mental professional that would attempt to do any substantive analysis of a patient over the internet. Every time you attempt it you show yourself to be a total amateur. further you yourself show very little critical thinking skills being blinded by your own self serving thesis. As I have said before if you had any critical thinking skills you would realize that mentally ill people Mimic religious figures for the same reason they mimic being kings and presidents. They mimic what they respect and see power and fame in. Your thesis and you are like a dog with a bone and you can’t see past your own narrative.
Your ongoing ignorance on issues of mental diagnoses is displayed again in that people with severe mental issues are not defined or diagnosed upon selecting one criteria but a whole range of symptoms of which writing great literature that changes the world and establishes moral laws that have governed civilizations for centuries is not one.
Further to show your own mental imbalance you argue at one point that the biblical text is reliable enough to diagnose the sickness of the individuals in the bible but then at others claim they are fictitious characters which leaves you with the positively stupid proposition that stories in the bible of fictitious characters is somehow proof of their real life mental illness. Shhheesh so silly
“So my point and question was that if your conversion to Christianity and your very religious tone was not influenced by your culture, family and/or indoctrination by others, what was the reason you became a Christian ”
then your cognitive faculties are in deep question because i have stated several times its my study of prophecy that is my reason for being a Christian. I already know your motivation for your position was to find a scapegoat to blame for a suicide so who is operating on emotion more?
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“Mike, you have proven you are evil. There is no God / Christ spirit in you if one exists.”
ROFL…..KK the “chief” now speaks for the Holy Spirit. He’s got religion. 🙂
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For anyone interested, here is an excellent BBC documentary titled “God On the Brain”, and there is a segment about the 7th Day Adventist prophet.
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/god-on-the-brain/
There is a lot of research about hyper-religiosity, sudden religious conversion, and neurological disorders, but it is taboo in our society to discuss this and mental disorders are still stigmatized (no thanks to demon believing religions). However, I think it should be addressed when we are discussing belief systems that have had, to date, zero verifiable evidence of the god these very religious people of the past have written and testified about.
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RE: “the history of theists who have added to science”
You don’t happen to have a graph, do you Mike, showing the decline from before the Age of Reason to the present?
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“This is not a judgement on my part, but a fact everyone can see. ”
🙂 If only you and yours on this small blog actually could proclaim whatever you wish as fact and it be so eh?
Sorry the questions is completely legit. No matter how you all get upset over it. if Victoria can indict religion and a whole swatch of religious people as being responsible for her husband’s demise as she most definitely often does then it’s PERFECTLY legit to ask if other issues were not a part of the end result?
What?? you think theres a free pass to indict, froth at the mouth and blame religion and Christians for someone committing suicide and that everything else must be off the table? give me a break
Don’t talk about evil when what you really mean is what self serves…
What would be the more enlightened and thoughtful position would be to look at all the issues (many of which are out of anyone’s control) or stop blaming Christianity for all the things you do
but then that doesn’t suit an atheist narrative right?
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@TBlack
You crossed a line! To type something so disgusting and immoral to another human being about the loss of someone so incredibly close to her is vile, wicked and EVIL! Her husband knew their only child for a few days. He was suffering when he died and Victoria has suffered so much because of it. I can’t even begin to imagine finding a dead body, yet alone that of my lover, best friend and father of my only child. Here’s another thought….. Victoria still held unto the idea of Jesus for YEARS after that dark day thinking that the issue wasn’t Christianity, but her husband, the Devil, the Church her husband sought out and even herself.
So, please, pack up and leave. I would tell you to apologize to my beautiful friend, but I don’t think you’re capable of empathy.
Sorry, V, I really, really am. I love you.
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“NO research anywhere shows that all religious people or even most are mentally ill.”
Show me where I said that, Mike? I have said that all religious people have been indoctrinated. And yes, nobody in their right mind would be so cruel, but besides that you completely missed the point of my question. If you weren’t influenced by family and culture, and you weren’t indoctrinated that Christianity is “the truth”, then why did you become a very religious believer in the Yahweh god?
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