You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
Islam is not based on love.. it’s based on hate/ evil.
You’re making claims that millions of Muslims the world over would reject. Whether a religion is based on love or hate isn’t the criteria for it’s truth. What we are discussing here is the truth of the religion, not whether we like it or not. You’ve told us over and over we don’t have to like God’s rules, they’re just true, whether we like them or not. If Islam is true it doesn’t matter if you like it’s premise or not.
LikeLike
“William, let me try to explain it this way… if a follower of santa claus gives up his life to testify to santa’s existence, and this follower claimed they were an elf.. how much credibility would you give to this martyrdom? If you apply objectivity, it’ll be zero.” – kathy
Kathy, I think anyone dying for invisible father’s of themselves is jsut ass crazy as anyone who thinks themselves elves and dies for santa – but back to the topic…
None of the religions I mentioned believed they were anything but men, yet all thought they were dying for their god. many of the christain martyrs of crusades died in war, killing others.
But fine, if you want to toss out all muslim martyrs because the majority killed others, then okay, but before we go one, why does that matter? If god truly wanted people to be killed, wouldnt that be god’s will whether you thought it was more evil than loving? remember, god is also vengeance and wrath, is he not?
But there are other religious martyrs that did not kill others and were killed for their religion and witches are actually a good example, except they were typically killed by christians.
“I don’t know what else to tell you, William.” – kathy
well, i guess you provide the credentials that you say exist that show christian martyrdom is evidence of divine truth, where other religions lack such credentials.
or, you could think this over and realize that being a martyr is only evidence for someone’s devotion – not in divine truth.
People have died for all sorts of things, yet you only think there’s one thing that is actually divinely true – so in a very real sense, we’re very close together except that i just add one more religion to the “absurd” pile than you do.
LikeLike
“The same goes for most Christians who lose their lives prematurely as a result of human hostility. They are often caught up in conflicts sparked by a complex web of ethnic, economic, political, ideological and other factors. Singling out the religious factor — let alone identifying religious martyrs — is incredibly complicated.
Even if a killer is not targeting Christians on account of their faith, Christians are “counted as martyrs to the extent that their actions in such situations are a testimony to their faith.
The number of clear-cut martyrdoms each year is actually quite low, and they often make international news.” ”
Another great example of liberal bias/ lack of objectivity.
First, what does this have to do with the value of Christian martyrdom? Nothing. It’s just an “argument” about the numbers.. not what the debate is about except that Christian martyrs DO outnumber others.. which this article doesn’t change that fact one bit.
2nd, those who were killed on 9/11 weren’t facing any impending or realistic threat for not being Muslims. They lived in the US.. a free country without persecution.. this is not even CLOSE to what Christians around the world face on a daily basis for being Christians.
They are often caught up in conflicts sparked by a complex web of ethnic, economic, political, ideological and other factors…. BECAUSE of WHERE they live and their chosen faith. Not the same thing as the people who got caught up in the 9/11 attack.
Whoever wrote this had a clear bias.. and Neuro also for posting it as an “argument”. It’s a fail.
LikeLike
oh sigh..
“well, i guess you provide the credentials that you say exist that show christian martyrdom is evidence of divine truth, where other religions lack such credentials.
or, you could think this over and realize that being a martyr is only evidence for someone’s devotion – not in divine truth. ”
Incredible.. again, santa’s martyrs don’t compare to Christian martyrs.. just as Muslim martyrs don’t compare..
And, it IS compelling CORROBORATIVE evidence that goes towards the truth of Christianity.
Just like the corroborative evidence considered in a jury trial.
Your ignorance and denial is strong William.. but don’t feel too bad, clearly, you are not alone.
LikeLike
Bosnia and Kosovo – lots of muslims were murdered for being muslim – not for suicide bombing people…
I think you have a clear bias as well as a clear ignorance regarding the majority of muslims.
LikeLike
“And, it IS compelling CORROBORATIVE evidence that goes towards the truth of Christianity.” – kathy
I’m not talking about santa and if it’s so easy and so clear, then it should be easy for you to provide. please do as that will be more compelling than santa clause remarks.
“Your ignorance and denial is strong William.. but don’t feel too bad, clearly, you are not alone.” – kathy
Well, thanks for saying that you’re there with me, but kathy, honestly, I dont think I’m acting ignorant like you…. while i hate to leave you alone, I guess you could take comfort in knowing that mike is there with you…. although i’m not sure how much of a comfort that will be… and it’s not even clear that mike is fool enough to make the martyr claims that you are…
LikeLike
If a follower of Jesus gives up his life to testify to Jesus’ existence because they were afraid they would spend an eternity burning in Hell if they didn’tf.. how much credibility would you give to this martyrdom?
LikeLike
If a follower of Jesus gives up his life to testify to Jesus’ existence because they were afraid they would spend an eternity burning in Hell if they didn’tf.. how much credibility would you give to this martyrdom?
Come on, arch! Christian martyrs don’t believe outlandish things like Hell. They only martyr themselves because they love God, whom they’ve never seen, and Jesus, who died, rose from the dead, and ascended into heaven. Nothing strange about that!
LikeLike
“Another great example of liberal bias/ lack of objectivity.”
Kathy, why does this paranoid comment, yet again, not surprise me? 😉 If you didn’t get the point, which complimented the point Arch was making, then it demonstrates that you simply lack the ability to think critically.
Kathy, the bottom line is that you have failed at presenting verifiable evidence of your god. You “reason” by your emotions and have succumb to fundamentalist indoctrination.
LikeLike
Ruth,
me: “Islam is not based on love.. it’s based on hate/ evil. ”
you: “You’re making claims that millions of Muslims the world over would reject. Whether a religion is based on love or hate isn’t the criteria for it’s truth. What we are discussing here is the truth of the religion, not whether we like it or not. You’ve told us over and over we don’t have to like God’s rules, they’re just true, whether we like them or not. If Islam is true it doesn’t matter if you like it’s premise or not.”
What a religion is based on is most certainly evidence to be considered when deciding it’s truth.
Most people rightly believe that love is at the center of everything.. not evil. And it’s much more likely that a religion based on hate/ evil is LYING.. love is TRUTH.
As for Islam being a religion of hate and evil… all you have to do is reference their actual scriptures.
http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/muslim-commandments-muslims-must-follow/blog-376121/?link=ibaf&q=islamic%20commandments%20Muslims%20must%20follow%20these
LikeLike
And it’s much more likely that a religion based on hate/ evil is LYING.. love is TRUTH.
What makes it more likely?
LikeLike
“And it’s much more likely that a religion based on hate/ evil is LYING.. love is TRUTH.” – kathy
so, like if there was a religion where the “god” commanded its people to slaughter entire cities and nations of men, women and children and on a few occasions only save the young virgin girls to keep for themselves, then we are safe to assume that religion is likely a lie?
LikeLike
So Kathy, are you saying that you are willing to die for a god, Yahweh, (Jesus’ daddy) who slaughtered 10’s of millions because he was pissed off that they didn’t bow down to him?
Is the hope for eternal life that important to you that you would lower your standards as a human being, and worship a god who resembles the worst of kings (dictators), alpha male chimpanzees and baboons, in order to save yourself from the burning pits of hell?
LikeLike
Kathy, just an FYI (from Wikipedia):
In the Bahá’í Faith, martyrs are those who sacrifice their lives serving humanity in the name of God.
Martyrdom (called shahadat in Punjabi) is a fundamental concept in Sikhism and represents an important institution of the faith.
_______________________
The following are excerpts from a presentation entitled “Martyrdom in Christianity and Islam” (Westminster University, Harrow, 030408):
(Emphasis mine.)
Kathy (and Mike), you have obviously evaluated Christianity on its merits and determined that it is the “right” religion for you. Others have done the same and found that it simply doesn’t measure up. Obviously, as all the posts on this blog have shown, it’s a challenge to try and convince the other side to see the “error of their ways,” But when push comes to shove, it’s a losing battle for both sides.
LikeLike
Darn WordPress! My “emphasis” was the last paragraph of the above quote (starting “These different …”)
LikeLike
Nan, we see the bold emphasis on your comment — you apparently don’t.
LikeLike
kathy, I’m assuming you were born a christian like most of us here. Have you ever really considered “what if the guys who wrote the bible, weren’t really inspired by god?”
If you’ve never really considered that question, then that may speak to a bias you have – a bias that I once also had.
I just want to suggest you do the following before responding again, and I dont mean this critically, really:
1) really think about that question; “what if the bible bible isnt really from god,” or “how do we know it’s really from god?”
2) research how the bible was assembled.
3) read through matthew’s prophecies and for each one, go back to the OT and read it in it’s context and try to think about it as if you didn’t know any more than those in the OT.
4) when you’re looking for evidence for the bible, also look at evidence that’s against the bible – the historic and archaeological, etc… a word of caution, in doing this you will come across many “issues” that people claim are issues, but they arent really – just dont let those few blind you from the credible ones.
5) think about those who didnt grow up in christian societies and how difficult it would be to leave their religion of birth…
just a suggestion
LikeLike
Victoria, I tried looking at my post from Chrome, Firefox, and IE and none of them show the bolding in the quote … ??? It shows it on the words I bolded at the beginning (the two religions), but that’s all. Strange.
LikeLike
“kathy, I’m assuming you were born a christian like most of us here. Have you ever really considered “what if the guys who wrote the bible, weren’t really inspired by god?”
Crickets! I have been skipping over your posts but saw this since it was the last one
The truth finally comes out…So you all/most were born Christians eh?
and this after getting all upset when we said you never were?
Wowser.
LikeLike
Nan, I just realized that I was reading your post from my email and it did show up bold, but on Nate’s blog, it does not. So it does appear to be a WP glitch.
Or — are you using “strong” – “/strong” in brackets or “b” – “/b” in brackets? Because some depletes will only recognize “strong” — “/strong”
LikeLike
As for Islam being a religion of hate and evil… all you have to do is reference their actual scriptures.
Kathy, anybody can take scriptures out of context. That’s what Christians say when the criminal aspects of it are pointed out. Muslims would say the same thing. They have answers for all of that just like you have answers for the Bible.
LikeLike
The truth finally comes out…So you all/most were born Christians eh?
I was not. But I think that the point William was trying to make is that the culture that surrounds us is Christian, therefore that is the one we’re likely to know the most about and the one that we are likely to adhere to if we adhere to a religion at all. I don’t know for certain, but I would venture a guess that he knows each person has to make a decision for him/herself.
LikeLike
“So Kathy, are you saying that you are willing to die for a god, Yahweh, (Jesus’ daddy) who slaughtered 10′s of millions because he was pissed off that they didn’t bow down to him?
Is the hope for eternal life that important to you that you would lower your standards as a human being, and worship a god who resembles the worst of kings (dictators), alpha male chimpanzees and baboons, in order to save yourself from the burning pits of hell?”
Neuro, I don’t understand this comment.. can you please add some actual logic so I can respond to it?
The God I worship gave His life for us. Your comment is extremely delusional.
LikeLike
“Crickets! I have been skipping over your posts but saw this since it was the last one
The truth finally comes out…So you all/most were born Christians eh?
and this after getting all upset when we said you never were?
Wowser.” – mike
Not sure I know what you’re talking about as i dont have much experience in speaking with the mentally handicap, but I’ll just throw a few things out there, hoping the shotgun approach has some success…
by born christians, i meant being born into christian family, where it’s the one “true” religion you’re taught from day one. Sure, to be chrisitian actually takes cognitive acceptance by the individual, but thought this went without saying – and besides, you seem to read all of sorts of meanings into passages of the bible that aren’t there, I figured you have problem filling in these obvious blanks.
and had you really been paying attention this entire time you’ve been on nates blog, you’d realize that it is not only now that we’re claiming to have previously been christians, but assume this is really some dumb act you’re playing (an easy act for you?) because I said “born christian?”
so, if it’s still too confusing for you, allow me to rephrase, ” I’m assuming you were born into a christian family, and in a nation that identifies mostly as christian, where we’ve been told from youth that it is the true religion and all the others are wrong, like most of us here.”
does that make it any clearer for you, inspector gadget?
LikeLike
Mike, How about you? Since you said you were not raised religious, did you find Jesus in prison like so many do? After an alcohol /and or drug binge, like so many do? During a crisis in your life, like so many do? After experiencing serious health problems or trauma like so many do? Or a single seizure like so many do? Or did missionaries come knocking at your door? Did you have a sudden religious conversion (clinical term) caused by a neurological disorder? Did you have a traumatic brain injury? Have you been diagnosed with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, Schizophrenia, Mania, Temporal Lobe Epilepsy?
If you do not believe that your culture had any influence on your conversion, what did?
LikeLike