You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
“how long do you think it should take for science to come up with a simple theory/ idea of our origins?” – You really want to know our origin? OK, I’ll explain it to you —
The Universe’s origin was very complex. Originally, there was no earth, nor sea, nor sky – only a great void named, Ginnungagap.
North of Ginnungagap (how does one determine North of a void?), lay the dark, icy realm of death: Niflheim. To the void’s South, lay the fiery realm of sparks and molten metal, known as Muspell. As a side note, at the border of Muspell resided an entity known as Surt, who guards the land with a flaming sword, who, at the end of the world, will kill all of the gods and burn the world with fire.
Over time, sparks and molten material filled in the southern portion of the void, while a spring named, Hvergelmir, located in Niflheim, created the Elivagar, or eleven rivers, which froze, layer upon layer, until it filled in the northern half.
In Ginnungagap, where the ice, frost, wind, rain and heavy cold from Niflheim met the soft air, heat and light from Muspell, the Elivagar thawed, its drops forming a giant, evil frost ogre named Ymir. As Ymir slept, a male and female frost giant formed under his left arm, while Ymir’s legs had carnal knowledge of each other and produced another male frost giant- – from the three of whom, presumably, were descended all of the frost giants we know and love today.
But wait, there’s more —
Shortly after, the same ice-melt produced a cow named, Audhumla, from which four rivers of milk flowed, feeding Ymir. Now to produce four rivers of milk, clearly the cow herself required nourishment, which she obtained by licking blocks of ice. Over three days of licking, Audhumla discovered first a head hair, then a whole head, and finally, a whole strong, handsome Man (a god-Man, not to be confused with a Human), named Buri, who somehow had a son, named Bor, who married Bestla, one of the frost giants, and the two had three sons: Vili, Ve, and Odin, the latter of whom is likely most familiar to us.
Hating Ymir, the evil frost giant, Odin and his brothers killed him. So much blood flowed from Ymir, it drowned all of the frost giants except two, Bergelmir and his wife, who escaped in a boat made from a hollowed tree trunk – an interesting twist on the flood story.
Odin, et al, made the earth from Ymir’s flesh, rocks from his teeth and bones, from his blood, the rivers, lakes and seas, and from his brains, the clouds. From his hollowed skull, they created the dome of the sky, flinging up sparks from Muspell to make the stars, the sun and the moon.
They gave one area, Jotunheim, to the remaining frost giants, then established the kingdom of Midgard, to be the home of future Humans, protecting it from the giants by fortifications made from Ymir’s eyebrows.
One day, strolling along the seashore, the brothers found two logs. Odin gave them breath and life, Vili gave them brains and feelings, while Ve gave them hearing and sight, thus creating the first Humans, from whom all of Mankind is descended. They called the Man, Ask and the Woman, Embla; as promised, Midgard became their home.
Above Midgard lies Asgard, the realm of the gods, where Odin (or Woden, as he was known in Angleland) sits on his throne and watches over all of the worlds. Midgard and Asgard are connected by a rainbow bridge named, Bifrost.
At one point in the legend, in order to somehow obtain some additional magic spells that he had not previously possessed, Odin agrees to be hung from the World Tree, an ash known as Yggdrasul for nine days while being pierced in the side with his own spear – does that have a familiar ring to it?
All of this must be true, after all, it’s in the book —
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@”the BIRD” Um you DO know that there are still legitimate followers of the Asatru religion out there, and they DO use wordpress. Right? I mention it just because the Odinist among them are fond of little eccentricities like, using hammers in a pretty offensive manner.:)
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Ruth, we are a democratic republic.. we vote for people who support our views/ beliefs.. EVEN if those views/ beliefs are motivated by religious beliefs. We ALL STILL have a right to vote as WE choose.. not how liberals choose.
Yes, we do. Even liberals. Sorry, but you don’t get to marginalize people who aren’t like you. No one said you had to vote the same way as another. And if your candidate loses, you still should support our country and our process. I believe it’s the divisiveness of such attitudes that is destroying this country, not liberals. United we stand, divided we fall.
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“You make the naïve assumption that the proof can be had in a decade or two.. it just shows how narrow yours and other liberals thinking is.. not having proof now isn’t proof that I’m wrong.. it takes more time than that. That’s how science works.”
If you are making the claim that science hasn’t had enough time to bear out the consequences, what is it you are basing your assertions on?
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@Zoe, That wasn’t supposed to have a negative tone to it or a tone of condescension. I just meant that God never wanted to be feared.
Hayden, dude, what translation of the Bible you been readin’? Is it the Thomas Jefferson Bible?
Seriously, though, can you point to where you’re getting that from?
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**(Hello Hayden)**” DO YOU SEE MY NAME HERE KC? “ …. Soooooo thank you KC Now I got to watch the damn thing too!”
*snickers* Hayden, you should never call someone names who can mess with your head. 😈
“NightNymph* LMAO
And thank you for the congrats.
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“the Odinist among them are fond of little eccentricities like, using hammers in a pretty offensive manner.” – as you may have surmised by now, I have a hard head.
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Mike,
you, along with a lot of other stuff said,
“Now please go ahead and repeat the same nonsense and pretend like ti hasn’t been addressed. i’m done on that issue. come up with another contradiction …You failed yet again.”
You did exactly what I said you had to do, and that is ignore John’s context and try to cram it in the context of the other gospels. And you’re explanation of John 13:1 & 2 is anything but cut and dry as you claim.
It seems rather silly the way you claim it to be, but even if that were a possibility, it is also possible that John was saying “before the passover festival and after this evening’s supper, this, that and the other happened…”
and again, the only reason you say that John isnt talking about before the actual passover, whether iN John 13 or through the rest of the book is because it conflicts with the other gospels. If there were no other gospels, you’d agree that jesus was killed on the day that they slaughtered the passover lamb – which seems to be John’s point.
Besides, John 13:1&2 arent all there is to John. The passages have been provided numerous times.
But saying that they havent eaten the passover on the day of passover is ridiculous, even if the entire FOUB was also called the passover. There was one true passover feast as you know, but becuase of the proximity of it to the FOUB, they began to identify the separate feasts by one name. If they had eaten the actual passover feast, it is senseless to say, “man, i sure need to make sure I’m clean to eat the passover.”
Even Pilot was going to release a prisoner or passover… but i guess I the custom was to do it after the actual passover? I mean, i could see the significance of doing on the passover, but i suppose they would have done it after as you suggest, just because…
Is there a passage in the OT that identifies the FOUB as the passover, or was that a NT thing?
you also said,
“I did and I won’t be wasting time again since it was a collossal waste of time. You obviously have not read up very much of what i Have said since all of your weak points have been addressed and some of them MULTIPLE TIMES.” – mike
or you havent read what I have said, because you keep pretending those things arent there and it’s you who says the same stuff. I keep trying to address your points, but it’s typically “it doesnt mean what it says,” or “well, in mark he said this, and since we know god is perfect, we can know his book would be perfect and since god wrote the bible, we know that john meant the same think as mark…” That’s neat and all, but when i read John, John still says differnt stuff than mark.
and you also said,
“This is what I hate about discussing things with you. Theres no progression. Its like ground hog day. its like you say – “then there is this man standing in the street” and I say ‘it wasn’t a man in the street that was a mannequin. look see?’
then two days later it will be like “then theres this man in the street” as if the issue hadn’t been addressed. tedious and boring. SO this will be my LAST TIME”
…except we’re not talking about men or mannequins, we’re talking about an old book. And I’m like, “mike, look, it has problems in it and it was written by men” and you’re like, “it cant have problems in it if you can imagine anyway that there isnt problems in it, and besides, we know that god wrote the book, because the men who wrote it told us it was from god…”
you’re a genius – and i dont mean that literally.
do you have an alternate translation for John 19:14 that backs up your claim about that passage?
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re: above response to Mikey
William, I DO so love a man who makes me laugh. . 🙂
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“And it’s extremely powerful testimony when it’s believed by credible people. Sorry but you can’t
take this away.” – kathy
but kathy, why do you take it away from other faiths?
I still haven’t seen you illustrate how christian martyrs have a better martyrdom than the rest.
And I doubt you’d suggest that people cant make mistakes. I am certain the christian martyrs, like all other martyrs, firmly believe what they’re dying for, but how does that make them right? It means they’re convinced, sure, but has no commentary on the accuracy of their beliefs.
and another questions is, are all christian martyrs true christians or are certain denominations not counted while others are truer?
Martyrdom, is not evidence of the divine, but only evidence of one’s devotion. That’s why martyrdom is moot in this conversation. do you have real evidence to offer, beyond certain people’s devotion to your religion?
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“You did exactly what I said you had to do, and that is ignore John’s context and try to cram it in the context of the other gospels. And you’re explanation of John 13:1 & 2 is anything but cut and dry as you claim.”
Yawn……rhetoric makes such a poor come back to facts.
“It seems rather silly the way you claim it to be, but even if that were a possibility,’
Yes william because we all know conjunctions ought to be ignored when looking at a text. sigh such vast silliness from you
“and again, the only reason you say that John isnt talking about before the actual passover, whether iN John 13 or through the rest of the book is because it conflicts with the other gospels. ”
Yes william because I put the conjunction there and made the subject loving to the end. My translation of your post so far?
Waaah!…Waaah! give me back my contradiction. LOL
” If there were no other gospels, you’d agree that jesus was killed on the day that they slaughtered the passover lamb – which seems to be John’s point. ”
NO I would consider it asinine that the feast was mentioned where there was a supper and then claim the supper mentioned after it had to have nothing to do with the feast Well actually….I’d consider it both Asinine AND idiotic.
“But saying that they havent eaten the passover on the day of passover is ridiculous, even if the entire FOUB was also called the passover. ”
Poor everything flies over your head soul. there were several meals of the passover and two in particular. People could say of the whole feast they ate it or they could refer to it as a particular meal of the passover as being eaten. The ridiculousness is your cry babying because yet another contradiction has crumbled before your eyes.
“Even Pilot was going to release a prisoner or passover… but i guess I the custom was to do it after the actual passover? ”
Thou nit it was the passover feast and the very first day of it as well. The day begins from the previous evening to the next evening in Jewish days. YOU are the one claiming Pilot was going to releasing a prisoner BEFORE the passover.
“you’re a genius – and i dont mean that literally. ”
You are a nit and I mean that literally. 🙂
“do you have an alternate translation for John 19:14 that backs up your claim about that passage?”
Well even though I don’t buy into You and Nate’s VASTLY silly non scholarly nonsense claim that translations are the end all and be all of Bible exegesis (you’ve failed to cite a single bible scholar that asserts that driveling nonsense) are there translations that see the passover there as referring to the week and not the meal? Why yes Read er and weep
http://www.biblestudytools.com/john/19-14-compare.html
John 19:14 NCV
New Century Version
It was about noon on Preparation Day of Passover week. Pilate said to the Jews, “Here is your king!”
ohn 19:14 NIRV
New International Reader’s Version
It was about noon on Preparation Day in Passover Week. “Here is your king,” Pilate said to the Jews.
John 19:14 NIV
New International Version
It was the day of Preparation of Passover Week, about the sixth hour. “Here is your king,” Pilate said to the Jews.
and with that Sorry Will but you are back to being ignored by me because you really have nothing to offer by way of facts….as usual.
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RE: “…how long do you think it should take for science to come up with a simple theory/ idea of our origins?” – This is our REAL origin, Kathy – trust me —
For REALS!
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“Yes william because we all know conjunctions ought to be ignored when looking at a text. sigh such vast silliness from you” – mike
weren’t you just talking about rhetoric? and did I ignore it? where did i do that?
“NO I would consider it asinine that the feast was mentioned where there was a supper and then claim the supper mentioned after it had to have nothing to do with the feast Well actually….I’d consider it both Asinine AND idiotic.” – mike
why are you pretending the rest of John isn’t there? If you read the rest of John you’d see what I was saying. Plus, it said before the passover feast/festival jesus knew his hour had come and after supper he did this, that and the other – again, nothing says this was the passover supper, except for other books – and teh other books specifically say passover feast or meal – why doenst John? probably because john doesnt mean passover supper, as he had just said it was before that, and later clarifies by saying it was the day to prepare for the passover – not the day to eat it…
“Well even though I don’t buy into You and Nate’s VASTLY silly non scholarly nonsense claim that translations are the end all and be all of Bible exegesis (you’ve failed to cite a single bible scholar that asserts that driveling nonsense) are there translations that see the passover there as referring to the week and not the meal? Why yes Read er and weep” – mike
Interesting. I haven’t said that it was the end all be all, but again, since i’m not a scholar on the ancient languages, I do tend to be persuaded by a scholar’s translation over some guy (you) who isnt a scholar and who looks up his greek liek I do, with an interlinear bible.
If greek has no way of identifying which word goes with another for lack of punctuation as you imply, where the scholars cant give accurate translations, then the greek language is confusing and was one of the dumbest choices to use, as that woudl mean a lot of meaning would be up for grabs…. so yes, i would defer to the scholars in this case – but even so, I did ask for a scholarly translation that supported your claims…
… and the translations you provided dont say what you said it meant. Now you’re saying that it meant “preparation for the passover week” when before you were saying that John 19:14 meant preparation for the sabbath… which is it that you agree with?
Also, are you saying that they prepare for the passover week after the passover is over? that seems like that is what you’re saying.
so far, your translations of “preparation for the passover week” still seems to coincide with what i’ve been saying. Since the actual passover is no doubt part of the passover week, they would have prepared the passover lamb and their houses by removing the leaven – but you’re suggesting that they did all of this after the actual passover feast?
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Hayden, before we leave the Norse (BTW, Thor was the one with the hammer, not his daddy, Odin), this might interest you:
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“was altered by medieval Christian historians”
Why are we not surprised. Seems to be a habit with them.
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Here you go, Kathy, here’s the REAL origin of the world:
THE JAPANESE
This story, in its original form, can be found in the “Kojiki,” Japan’s oldest chronicle, compiled in 712 C.E (or A.D., if you prefer), by O No Yasumaro.
By this comparatively late date, as far as creation myths go (though doubtless, the story itself is centuries, if not millennia older), Japanese culture was well on its way to becoming the strongly ritualized society that existed in Japan until the end of World War II, when it succumbed to outside influences and became global in scope, though remnants of such rituals as the various protocols of bowing still exist today. I mention this only to draw your attention to the serious consequences experienced by our hero and heroine of the story to follow, when they failed to follow precise societal etiquette.
Interesting to note also, that of all of the creation myths, this is the only one I’ve examined that acknowledges the vast age of the earth.
“Before the heavens and the earth came into existence, all was chaos, unimaginably limitless and without definite shape or form. Eon followed eon: then, lo! out of this boundless, shapeless mass, something light and transparent rose up and formed the heaven.
“This was the Plain of High Heaven, in which materialized a deity called, Ame-no-Minaka-Nushi-no-Mikoto (the Deity-of-the-August-Center-of-Heaven). Next the heavens gave birth to a deity named, Takami-Musubi-no-Mikoto (the High-August-Producing-Wondrous-Deity), followed by a third called, Kammi-Musubi-no-Mikoto (the Divine-Producing-Wondrous-Deity). These three divine beings are called the Three Creating Deities.” (AKA, the Trinity, for short –)
“In the meantime, what was heavy and opaque in the void gradually precipitated and became the earth, but it had taken an immeasurably long time before it condensed sufficiently to form solid ground. In its earliest stages, for millions and millions of years, the earth may be said to have resembled oil floating upon the face of waters.”
Suddenly, from the condensing earth, a pair of deities were born, “like the sprouting up of a reed.” There were then so many deities born in this manner that before long, they were knee-deep in deities. But as long as the world remained in a chaotic state, there was nothing for them to do.
The Heavenly Deities summoned two divine beings, brother and sister, Izanagi and Izanami and ordered them to descend to the nebulous earth, to consolidate it.
“’We bestow on you,’ they said, ‘this precious treasure with which to rule the land, the creation of which we command you to perform.’ So saying, they handed them a spear called, Ama-no-Noboko, embellished with costly gems. The divine couple respectfully and ceremoniously received the sacred weapon, then withdrew from the presence of the Deities, ready to perform their august commission.”
For those unfamiliar with Japanese name endings, Izanagi is a male and Izanami, a female – trust me, this is important.
They descended the floating bridge that connects heaven and earth (sounds a lot like Bifrost, the rainbow bridge of the Norse, that connects Midgard with Asgard). Gazing down, “What they beheld was a world not yet condensed, but looking like a sea of filmy fog floating to and fro in the air….” Izanagi suggested they stir the fog with the magic spear, and when he did, he touched something. Drawing up the spear, drops fell from it which coagulated immediately and became that which, to this very day, is known as the Island of Onokoro. The divine couple descended from the bridge to make the island their base.
Once settled in, they wanted to marry, so they erected a pillar, the Heavenly August Pillar (what else?), in the center of the island and built around it a great palace, called the Hall of Eight Fathoms. Finally, they were ready for the ceremony:
“Thereupon, the male Deity, turning to the left and the female Deity to the right, each went around the pillar in opposite directions. When they again met each other on the further side of the pillar, Izanami, the female Deity, speaking first, exclaimed: ‘How delightful it is to meet so handsome a youth!’ To which Izanagi, the male Deity, replied: ‘How delightful I am to have fallen in with such a lovely maiden!’ After having spoken thus, the male Deity said it was not in order that woman should anticipate man in greeting.”
Setting aside for the moment their protocol faux pas, they threw caution – and their clothes – to the wind, although two birds had to fly in to give them instructions in the art. From their union came a son, who was “weak and boneless as a leach.” Disgusted with it, they put it in a boat made of reeds and abandoned it in the water – (Moses!?). Their second offspring was no better.
The two decided to trek back to heaven to find out what the problem was – after all, they’d been doing everything the birds told them to do, plus a few things birds just aren’t built to do.
The trinity of deities pondered the problem and putting their wits together, almost came up with a whole wit: “It is the woman’s fault. In turning round the pillar, it was not right and proper that the female Deity should, in speaking, have taken precedence over the male.”
The young couple saw the error of their ways, skipped back down the bridge and re-performed the ceremony, this time in strict accordance with protocol, about which, the Kojiki assures us: “This process was more appropriate and in accordance with the law of nature.” Just curious – what do you think, N.O.W.?
“After this, the children born to them left nothing to be desired,” the book relates. However, for some time after that, all of the “children” born to them happened to be the eight islands of Japan, followed by the numerous smaller islands surrounding Japan. It sounds like Izanagi abandoned his magical spear in favor of his own.
To make a short story long, after the couple finished birthing all of the myriad islands of Japan (and seemingly neglecting entirely the rest of the globe), they began begetting other deities who would preside over the sea, the harbors, the wind, and all natural phenomena that would affect an island nation that depended upon the sea for its sustenance.
But alas, in giving birth to the god of fire, Izanami was badly burned by the child. For a long time, she lingered, while Izanagi did everything in his power to help her recover. During this time, various parts of her body continued to give birth to still other deities. At last, she died, and hers was the first death in the world.
In anger, Izanagi drew his sword and decapitated his new son, the fire god, but from his blood sprang eight more deities, and from his lifeless body, eight more.
Izanagi mourned for his wife for a long time and finally decided to go down to Yomi, the land of the dead, in search of her. He finally found her after a long and perilous journey, and begged her to return with him to the land of the living.
She wanted more than anything to do so, but since her arrival in Yomi, she had eaten of the local food, and seemingly, once you’ve partaken of the cuisine of Yomi, Thomas Wolfe was right, you can’t go home again.
He continued to implore her and she finally admitted that there might be one slight chance, if she could ask for and receive permission from the gods of Yomi. She insisted he promise to wait where he was until she returned, and he vowed on his love for her, that he would. After waiting for what he felt was an interminably long time, he broke his word and went looking for her. And he found her – a rotting corpse in an advanced state of decomposition, and in that state, she was still giving birth – to eight thunder gods!
Izanagi turned and ran, but the noise awakened Izanami from her death-like slumber, and angry that he had broken his word, and that he had shamed her by seeing her in that decomposing state, she ordered the foul spirits (women, of course) of Yomi to slay him.
The spirits pursued Izanagi, but each time they came near to catching him, he threw off an object of his attire, first his headdress, then his comb, and each time it turned into food, which the women stopped to eat. Seriously, I am not making this up, it’s in the book.
Just as Izanagi reached the pass between Yomi and the land of the living, Izanami nearly caught up with him, but he blocked the pass with a giant boulder that it would take a thousand men to lift, forever sealing the passage between the land of the living and the land of the dead.
Standing on the Yomi side of the boulder, Izanami shouted to Izanagi, “Every day I will kill a thousand people and bring them to this land!”
To which Izanagi replied, “Every day I will cause one thousand, five hundred babies to be born!”
I’ve had lover’s spats like that, haven’t you?
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The point I’m trying to make, Kathy, and which I’ve little doubt will sail right over your head, is that each of these cultures, in their times, believed their creation myths as deeply as you believe yours, yet you have the unmitigated gall to say that theirs was wrong, and that only yours, written in the Bronze Age of the world, is right.
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William,
““And it’s extremely powerful testimony when it’s believed by credible people. Sorry but you can’t
take this away.” – kathy
but kathy, why do you take it away from other faiths?
I still haven’t seen you illustrate how christian martyrs have a better martyrdom than the rest.”
How many times do I have to explain this? You still don’t see a different between Christian martyrs and Muslim “martyrs”?
Name the other religions where the followers were killed for refusing to stop sharing their faith.
Don’t name those who kill THEMSELVES and others for their faith.. that’s NOT the same thing.
I’m not claiming that other martyrs aren’t similar to Christian martyrs but they are few by comparison and then at that point you would consider their reasons.. their religion and what they believe.. if they are killed by Muslims because they won’t denounce Santa Claus.. that’s not going to carry much weight.
I don’t know why you are having such a hard time understanding this.
Martyrdom CAN be extremely compelling evidence towards the truth of the faith. And Christian martyrs have the criteria required to cause it to be compelling evidence. Very much UNLIKE Islamic martyrdom.
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Anyone with such compelling evidence, Kathy, should have evidence running out of their ears as to exactly who these martyrs were and proof that they were martyred because they refused to renounce their beliefs. Many Christian were killed in Nero’s time, simply for being Christian – they weren’t given a choice of “renounce or die!” just killed, because Nero felt that Christian were upsetting Roman society, which they probably were.
Bottom line, as always: Proof, please —
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“How many times do I have to explain this? You still don’t see a different between Christian martyrs and Muslim “martyrs”?” – kathy
if killing others is an automatic qualifier, then how do you explain the OT?
“Name the other religions where the followers were killed for refusing to stop sharing their faith.
Don’t name those who kill THEMSELVES and others for their faith.. that’s NOT the same thing.” – kahty
Tibetan monks. Buddhists. Witches, etc, etc, etc…
“I’m not claiming that other martyrs aren’t similar to Christian martyrs but they are few by comparison and then at that point you would consider their reasons.. their religion and what they believe.. if they are killed by Muslims because they won’t denounce Santa Claus.. that’s not going to carry much weight.” – kathy
right, so let’s discuss merits of their religion. Instead, you’re insisting that martyrdom is good evidence for divine truthfulness, but only for christians and no one else. I’m not sure how that works, but now that you’re saying if a martyr from another religion is similar to the martyrdom of christianity, then we should look at the details of that religion…. well i agree with that.
I just dont understand how you’re saying martyrdom is evidence unless it’s for another religion, then we must look at the merits of the religion… I suggest we look at the merits of christianity and i suggest that dying for something has nothing do with whether that something is from god or not.
“Martyrdom CAN be extremely compelling evidence towards the truth of the faith. And Christian martyrs have the criteria required to cause it to be compelling evidence. ” – kathy
No, it’s compelling evidence that they think their religion is worth dying for, but not that it is indeed from god, but just that they thought it was.
and what criteria do they possess that makes christian martyrdom compelling evidence of the divine that other religions do not have – this what we’ve been asking for.
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See, Kathy? This is what we mean when we say that for Christians, it’s their way or no way.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/07/23/michigan-mayor-who-denied-a-reason-station-in-city-hall-but-allowed-a-prayer-station-hit-with-federal-lawsuit/
Please note the sentence that states this mayor “has made a habit of opposing atheist groups that want the same treatment as religious groups.”
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““Name the other religions where the followers were killed for refusing to stop sharing their faith.
Don’t name those who kill THEMSELVES and others for their faith.. that’s NOT the same thing.” – kahty
Tibetan monks. Buddhists. Witches, etc, etc, etc…”
Names please.. and the SPECIFICS… and witches automatically get put in the same category as martyrs for santa claus. (if any)..
What did the monks die for?? What were they testifying to that they needed to die? Same with Buddhists.
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“On Tuesday the BBC published an article exploring the controversy over the dramatically large numbers of Christian martyrs published by the Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. According to the center, more than 100,000 Christians are martyred every year.
I worked in the State Department’s Office of International Religious Freedom for several years, and I have always found this figure puzzling. My colleagues and I produced an annual report on persecution worldwide that contained accounts of dozens, sometimes hundreds, of martyrs. Some Christian human rights organizations place the number as high as 1,000. Why is there such discrepancy?
It all depends on how one defines “martyrdom”.
Calling millions of Christian victims of bloody civil wars “martyrs” is a bit like calling all the victims of 9/11 “heroes.” To be sure, many exhibited remarkable heroism. But most 9/11 victims were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
The same goes for most Christians who lose their lives prematurely as a result of human hostility. They are often caught up in conflicts sparked by a complex web of ethnic, economic, political, ideological and other factors. Singling out the religious factor — let alone identifying religious martyrs — is incredibly complicated.
Even if a killer is not targeting Christians on account of their faith, Christians are “counted as martyrs to the extent that their actions in such situations are a testimony to their faith.
The number of clear-cut martyrdoms each year is actually quite low, and they often make international news.”
http://www.religionnews.com/2013/11/12/call-realistic-reporting-christian-martyrs/
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“Names please.. and the SPECIFICS… and witches automatically get put in the same category as martyrs for santa claus. (if any)…What did the monks die for?? What were they testifying to that they needed to die? Same with Buddhists.” – kathy
I’m not sure what you’re talking about. maybe you can give an example of what you;re talking about by providing such info as it relates to christianity.
and why do witches get put in that category? people still believe in a practioce witchcraft and their trials, persecutions and executions are widely documented.
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“No, it’s compelling evidence that they think their religion is worth dying for, but not that it is indeed from god, but just that they thought it was.
and what criteria do they possess that makes christian martyrdom compelling evidence of the divine that other religions do not have – this what we’ve been asking for.”
William, let me try to explain it this way… if a follower of santa claus gives up his life to testify to santa’s existence, and this follower claimed they were an elf.. how much credibility would you give to this martyrdom? If you apply objectivity, it’ll be zero.
Now, take someone who, first, doesn’t make any strange claims about himself like being an elf, a person who’s lived a life dedicated to their faith, a faith that explains our origins, describes our purpose, that is based on LOVE.. a person who’s one of MANY witnesses to the truth of this faith based on a REAL person who willingly gave His life for what He was preaching, that MANY people also believed, that there is a BOOK that has prophecies that have been fulfilled AGAINST the odds, and that there is ARCHAELOGICAL evidence to support the Book’s truth..
which one’s martyrdom is going to give the most credible testimony?
Islam is not based on love.. it’s based on hate/ evil. Their leader was not martyred but was a murderer. And their martyrs take their OWN lives.. and those of as many innocent people as possible. It’s not the same thing. I don’t know what else to tell you, William.
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