You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
Where has Ezekiel 37 been fulfilled?
Jews have come from all over to be there, that’s true, but could mean anytime, or any release from captivity.
Regardless, isnt there a huge mosque sitting where the temple once was?
All of jerusalem are not followers of god – the majority being not – according to your beliefs, so how does that reconcile with Ezk 37:23?
Ezk 37 also says that david will be their king forever. Is the current leader of Israel related to davidor even to the tribe of judah?
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“So ahem lets skip over what would the next REAL logical step eh?” – mike
which is?
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“My half-bake hypocrisy? Ha! Okay. Poke Mike with a fork, I think he’s done.”
Good night. She’ s coming apart at the seams. That was supposed to be an intelligent retort?
No, I’m calling a spade a spade. If my hypocrisy is half-baked yours is fully baked. A toothpick inserted will just come out with crumbs.
Bingo!….. Just as I said and she just lied she wasn’t trying to do. Go to some idea about the holocaust rather than the prophecy of Israel becoming a nation that was under discussion.
Where was it I lied? I didn’t. I said I thought that my subject switch was quite transparent. It didn’t take a Mensa invitee to figure it out. I laid it right out there.
You just proved why I couldn’t be bother with you then (and shortly as it appears won’t be needing to bother with you again). When you get your atheist back against the wall as you have done here you wish to run off into some other back door antics.
What’s your word? Wowsers! After all the backflips, twisting, turning, and contorting you’ve done? After all the back door antics you’ve used? What the hell was that supernatural question in the first place, Mike? It had nothing to do with the topic of the original post that we were even commenting on. So it’s fair for you to go off-topic, denigrate people, and ask “back door antic questions” but it’s not fair for anyone else to do it? Now you want to stay on topic?!? And not even the topic of this post?
Well boo damn hoo.
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for you yes that would be the case because you know the logical step before you talk about HUMAN life would be to talk about LIFE and then you would start running into some more issues with Abiognensis that you KNEW you would have issues with
I don’t have issues here. I’ve said, repeatedly, I don’t know. Something which isn’t part of your vocabulary. And an answer you simply will not accept. Yes, I’m going to run into issues with abiogenesis. So will you. Because your answer cannot be tested nor proven/disproven. Your answer is a magic man. And not just any magic man, a magic man you claim to know all about.
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“Where was it I lied? I didn’t. I said I thought that my subject switch was quite transparent. It didn’t take a Mensa invitee to figure it out. I laid it right out there. ”
Oh really . Weren’t trying to hide you were about to change subject? Then why not go straight to whats up with the holocaust? You went to the UN question and the RETURN (of the Jews) and then the holocaust and the RETURN because you knew the subject was the RETURN….lol…..you guys always give yourselves away
all just so you could squirm your way to a discussion about the holocaust as if you had or have any good argument there either.
I keep wondering is there a correspondence class you guys all go though Or does such intellectually dishonesty just kind of attract you all to the same place like a magnet?
“Well boo damn hoo.”
yep there goes them dar seams…..lol 🙂 🙂
the natural de-evolution from “if a people really really really want a nation they can go take it”
Have a good weekend Ruth.
P.S. Make sure to stay away from any seismic areas according to Neuros latest links – they may cause suicide bombers. ROFL.
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Weren’t trying to hide you were about to change subject? Then why not go straight to whats up with the holocaust? You went to the UN question and the RETURN (of the Jews) and then the holocaust and the RETURN because you knew the subject was the RETURN….lol…..you guys always give yourselves away
Of course the subject was the return. You don’t think the holocaust had anything to do with the return? You just said holocaust sympathy played a role in it. That’s what I said days ago. According to you it was stupid then. I’m not hiding anything. I didn’t give myself away. If you didn’t see where I was going with that from a mile away maybe Mensa should retract there invitation. Sheesh.
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“Because your answer cannot be tested nor proven/disproven. Your answer is a magic man. And not just any magic man, a magic man you claim to know all about.”
Wong door.. two doors down on the right. Arch’s Everything out of nothing white fairy is auditioning for believers. Hurry and you get the box set of Krauss and Dawkins latest books. First 500 customers only
Hurry up and you too can become a fulfilled atheist!
That you people think you still can get any leverage out of “magic man” and ” man in the sky” “untestable” when some of your leading atheists are spouting the magic of everything out of absolute nothing is testament to your self denial skills
The church just needs to get better at communicating your duplicity to the world and your numbers will start to decline again
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mike asks if we can get to Ezekiel 37 anytime soon, but as is typically the case, he avoids the real discussion at all costs and insists upon side tangents.
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“Of course the subject was the return.”
Exactly so what was the barf about what the holocaust would say about My God? Thats an attempt to go off into some immorality of god argument and we both know it
‘You don’t think the holocaust had anything to do with the return? You just said holocaust sympathy played a role in it. That’s what I said days ago. According to you it was stupid then.”
NO I think its stupid that you think that it explains away the prophecy and for obvious reasons – the writer knew nothing of the holocaust AND the holocaust itself never delivered a single Jew to the nation of Israel since the holocaust refers to Jews being killed not getting homes in Palestine
. All you have been doing constantly (and failing miserably) is coming up with excuses after excuse to claim that a people away from their land for thousands of years coming back is just an every day occurrence so that you can try and back Nate’s drop down foolish comment that there are no fulfilled prophecies in the Bible. Plain and simple
the other thing that you have been corrected on but you can’t seem to get though your noggin
is that just because there are rational non miraculous reasons for a prophecy being fulfilled it doesn’t mean that the prophecy is not fulfilled. A prophecy need not be about something miraculous.
” I’m not hiding anything. I didn’t give myself away. If you didn’t see where I was going with that from a mile away maybe Mensa should retract there invitation. Sheesh.”
I already said I saw it coming but not from when you asked about the UN and Britain. That was just a set up to ask the second question and we both know it because when you got the answer to the UN question you just went straight to the next. That was you trying to weasel your way from one subject to the next and yes hiding that you were going to “what the holocaust would say about your God” foolishness
Its just you – one subject not going very well for you try to find a back door to another. You are just wasting time and I control mine
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William said:
“so again, I think asking which religion has more credentials of being divine is like asking which type of roach is prettiest – my answer regarding the roaches would be i think they’re all ugly – similarly, in regard to religion, I would say that none have credentials that show they’re divine.”
Sorry William, but this analogy that you think is so clever isn’t valid. It’s a fact that evidence exists for the truth of Christianity.. and it’s a fact that it FAR outweighs the evidence (if any) for santa.. if anyone thinks one roach is prettier than another, that’s strictly an OPINION.. no fact involved.
Even if you supposedly can’t grasp this.. evidence is factual and it can be measured/ weighed.. and therefor you CAN decide which has the most evidence.
Yet another simple reality that I have to explain to a liberal, who, being an educated adult, should already understand this.
“You said that martyrs were evidence – we showed that other religions had them too. You said that they didnt count because many muslim (ignoring the other religions) martyrs killed people, and then we pointed out that the OT had god commanding people to slaughter nations including the women and children.”
What does God commanding people be killed have to do with the value of martyrdom? It has zero bearing on whether a person was truly martyred (killed by others) or killed themselves.. which is not truly martyrdom .. especially when they take the innocent lives of others with them. What God does has nothing to do with determining the legitimacy of martyrdom.
“again, you recognize that your evidence and arguments for christianity dont hold up when used for other religions – why you still accept them as valid for christianity isnt exactly clear.”
It’s not the same thing.. HUGE differences… this really isn’t rocket science, William.. a 6 year old can grasp this.. why can’t you??
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“Hurry and you get the box set of Krauss and Dawkins latest books.” – mike
ah, yes, this pitiful position. Mike, why do you have to lie so much about this and continually act as if krauss or dawkins are THE atheist counter to god, and that their hypothesis are THE atheist doctrine of origins?
Is it because you hope this lie will believed by some, who then may think that your god and his son/self jesus created it all? yeah, I guess since creation is so big and so precise and so complicated that it must have been designed and created… but god, who is more complicated even more grand than the creation doesnt need design or to be created…. so I guess, everything doesnt really need a beginning or a creator according to the bible…
and again, Krauss and dawkins are not clergy and their hypothesis are not and do not claim to be end all be all, most accurate possibility nor are they atheist dogma.
You’re the worst kind of liar, a stupid one.
can we talk about Ezekiel 37 now?
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“mike asks if we can get to Ezekiel 37 anytime soon”
Dude you are just either so clueless its funny or a knowingly lying again. Thats why I am glad I don’t see much of your stuff (unfortunately WordPress doesn’t have an official ignore function).
Ruth and I have had a discussion about the return of the jews as a nation NOT Ezekiel 37. I referenced Ezekiel 37 for the first part about being like dry bones. so your little barf here about Mike asking if we can get to Ezekiel 37 is yet another in your long line of lies.
Secondly “We” were never asked. i was talking to Ruth. No “we” will include you because I don’t bother with debates with people who use mentally handicapped little girls for insults and their own personal entertainment especially those who claim its no big deal to do so.
I draw the line there. You can debate with yourself.
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Kathy,
“Sorry William, but this analogy that you think is so clever isn’t valid. It’s a fact that evidence exists for the truth of Christianity.. and it’s a fact that it FAR outweighs the evidence (if any) for santa.. if anyone thinks one roach is prettier than another, that’s strictly an OPINION.. no fact involved.
Even if you supposedly can’t grasp this.. evidence is factual and it can be measured/ weighed.. and therefore you CAN decide which has the most evidence.” – Kathy
Sorry Kathy, but again, listing this factual, measurable and weigh-able evidence would have been more productive when responding to a request to provide such evidence, more so than merely saying “well, there is evidence…” – kathy
but cool, when are you going to get around to showing it?
“What God does has nothing to do with determining the legitimacy of martyrdom.” – Kathy
Why do you think this?
but even so, you’re still ignore those who died as martyrs peacefully in other religions, or are you agreeing that they are also evidence for their religion’s divinity as well?
“It’s not the same thing.. HUGE differences… this really isn’t rocket science, William.. a 6 year old can grasp this.. why can’t you??” – Kathy
Maybe this is your problem, you’re getting you arguing points and intellectual cues from 6 year olds… or are you saying that you know a 6 year old who can actually provide the evidence you say is so real and present? Could you at least provide their contact info so I can ask them?
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“Yet another simple reality that I have to explain to a liberal, who, being an educated adult, should already understand this.”
Question is educated in what?
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“Ruth and I have had a discussion about the return of the jews as a nation NOT Ezekiel 37. I referenced Ezekiel 37 for the first part about being like dry bones. so your little barf here about Mike asking if we can get to Ezekiel 37 is yet another in your long line of lies.” – mike
so you didnt write this?
“I would say that God brought his people back despite the holocaust. As Ezekiel 37 indicates.
…Any chance that will be dealing with the prophecy itself any time this millenia?” – mike
Ezekiel 37 indicates a lot of stuff, but you’re saying it’s fulfilled because jews live in israel?
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Kathy asks: “A 6 year old can grasp this.. why can’t you??”
When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 🙂
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Arch said:
“Kathy, RE: “there are / have been billions who claim Jesus is real”” – there have been billions of equal intellect, who believe Santa is real.”
“equal intellect”? children have “equal intellect” with adults who require evidence?
“Of those who make the claim for Jesus, how many have ever been verified as having seen him? I’m thinking the same number who have been verified as having seen Santa.”
Wrong and you know it. The overwhelming majority of historians agree that Jesus was a real person.
“And I’ve still not gotten ANY answer as to who these martyrs were who allegedly died to provide you with “compelling evidence.”
Again, most historians agree that the disciples were real people who were martyred. You are trying hard to make it seem that this isn’t the case, but sorry, it is.
“I gave you William G. Dever, son of a minister, raised in religion, attended religious institutions all the way through the University, who became an atheist after spending 35 years as an eminent biblical archeologist in Israel and the Levant, who declares that there is no archeological evidence to support the existence of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, or Moses.”
So? As if there’s going to be evidence after 4 or 5,000 years .. what exactly is supposed to be so readily handy, Arch?
“There’s further evidence that all of the cities that “Joshua” allegedly conquered, were destroyed long before the time that Joshua allegedly lived – there WAS no Joshua,”
List it/ link it please..
“just a need to unite the Jewish people behind a story that would make it seem to them that they had a “god”-given right to the land of the Levant, so don’t start trotting out archaeology until you can explain the archaeology that already exists, disproving the Bible. ”
There is no archaeological evidence that disproves the Bible.. it doesn’t exist..
“Then we have one of the men who never met your jesus, telling us that he (Yeshua) spoke of Abraham and Moses as though they were real people, which means that he didn’t know any more about them, than you do.”
Fine, so then it means that you know NOTHING about history.. because it was told to you by people who didn’t know the actual people. #liberal”logic”
“What you’re asking, is which nonsense is the least nonsensical, and I don’t believe that’s a question ANYone wants to do enough research to answer, especially since if it’s an answer you don’t want to hear – and the odds are that it will be – you’ll dismiss it all anyway as “Liberal propaganda.” ”
You keep calling God “nonsense”, Arch.. so, AGAIN, I ask you.. what is your “better” explanation for our existence? Just answer this Arch.. I’ve asked it several times now!
Why can’t you answer this??? The only nonsense is coming from you.. in your double talk and lack of honesty/ objectivity. Who are you trying to kid? hint: you’re only “kidding” yourself.. and all the gullible prideful liberals who are reading.
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“No “we” will include you…” – mike
well mike, then you’re wanting to email ruth directly. You see, it a an open forum like this blog, all are welcome to chime in.
You cried so much about getting blocked for a hours one day, but you’re wanting block someone from a blog that isnt yours?
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“Question is educated in what?” – mike
you asking kathy or me?
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William said:
“Sorry Kathy, but again, listing this factual, measurable and weigh-able evidence would have been more productive when responding to a request to provide such evidence, more so than merely saying “well, there is evidence…” – kathy
but cool, when are you going to get around to showing it?
I’ve given it many times William, you’re playing games.. and it’s sad to see someone start out with sincere questions, as if you really were seeking truth, which I really appreciated and admired, (so rare with liberals).. but now you’ve reduced yourself to game playing.. you’ve even copied my “style”.. like asking for info and saying you’ll read it, thinking that it’ll work for you as it does for me… the problem William, is that I have truth and honesty on my side.. I’m not playing games.. and Ruth did this also… and others, do you all even know that you’re doing this?
“What God does has nothing to do with determining the legitimacy of martyrdom.” – Kathy
Why do you think this? ”
Why do you think it does? It’s a whole other issue.. it has nothing to do with what individuals do in regards to martyrdom.
“but even so, you’re still ignore those who died as martyrs peacefully in other religions, or are you agreeing that they are also evidence for their religion’s divinity as well?”
YES! Now maybe you’re getting it!.. that ALSO COULD be counted as “evidence”.. then, AGAIN, William, at this point you WEIGH the evidence of each..
“It’s not the same thing.. HUGE differences… this really isn’t rocket science, William.. a 6 year old can grasp this.. why can’t you??” – Kathy
“Maybe this is your problem, you’re getting you arguing points and intellectual cues from 6 year olds… or are you saying that you know a 6 year old who can actually provide the evidence you say is so real and present? Could you at least provide their contact info so I can ask them?”
Yep, you’ve reduced yourself to game playing.. how sad.
Deliberate ignorance in action.. on full display for everyone to read.
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“You keep calling God “nonsense”, Arch.. so, AGAIN, I ask you.. what is your “better” explanation for our existence?” – kathy
I think this is a good question, so i decided to chime in if that’s alright.
“I don’t know,” is my answer, maybe a god or some gods did it, or maybe something else entirely. There are theories and hypothesis, but i dont know them all and dont understand them all, and hold firmly on to none of them.
I believe this has been mentioned before, but many things used to be attributed to god, the rain, thunder/lighting, even Newton once thought that the planetary orbits were only explained by “god.” Yet with each of these (are there are others as you must know) it was figured out that they exist and happen through natural, explainable means even though they took a long time to figure out – they werent really happening through supernatural/miraculous/divine intervention.
But even if there was a creator(s), what makes you certain that it was the god of the bible?
How do you go from creation, which doesnt appear to have happened as the bible says, to god of the bible?
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Arch said: “There’s further evidence that all of the cities that “Joshua” allegedly conquered, were destroyed long before the time that Joshua allegedly lived – there WAS no Joshua,”
Kathy asked: “List it/ link it please..”
Radiocarbon, Vol 37, No 2 (1995). pp. 213-220
Tell Es-Sultan (Jericho): Radiocarbon Results of Short-Lived Cereal and Multiyear Charcoal Samples From the End of the Middle Bronze Age
Hendrik J. Bruins, Johannes van der Plicht
Abstract:
“The final destruction of MBA Jericho occurred during the late 17th or the 16th century BC.”
Or In other words…
Jericho was already laying in ruins for at least two centuries prior to the alleged time of the biblical exodus (1200–1450 BCE).
That, plus the logistical nightmare of trying to accommodate the physical needs of over two million people plus livestock camped in a desert for 40 years, and the fact that they left absolutely no trace of their sojourn… makes the story highly improbable.
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“I’ve given it many times William, you’re playing games.. and it’s sad to see someone start out with sincere questions, as if you really were seeking truth, which I really appreciated and admired, (so rare with liberals).. but now you’ve reduced yourself to game playing.. you’ve even copied my “style”.. like asking for info and saying you’ll read it, thinking that it’ll work for you as it does for me… the problem William, is that I have truth and honesty on my side.. I’m not playing games.. and Ruth did this also… and others, do you all even know that you’re doing this?” – kathy
what evidence? again, i may have missed it. I’ve listed what I’ve seen of your evidence and have tried to address it multiple times…. so if I have missed anything, please list it… why is this so hard?
“YES! Now maybe you’re getting it!.. that ALSO COULD be counted as “evidence”.. then, AGAIN, William, at this point you WEIGH the evidence of each..” – kathy
okay, yet again, what is the evidence that shows how christian martyrdom is more legit than other martyrs? Please, dont talk about how suicide bombers dont count, let’s just assume we’re talking about all the nonviolent martyrs…
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“Or In other words…
Jericho was already laying in ruins for at least two centuries prior to the alleged time of the biblical exodus (1200–1450 BCE).”
FAIL …..the alleged time is not set and there are questions about how the dates are derived for that “alleging”
You can do radio carbon dating till you fall on your face if the alleged chronology is wrong then you cannot prove anything from it. I have raised the issue of the problems of the chronology (particularly egyptian) quite a few times but to suit your own purposes most of you put your heads in the sand’
I have even linked to your beloved Wikipedia that confirm those issues and you still keep your head in the sand because it suits your atheism.
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I would say that God brought his people back despite the holocaust. As Ezekiel 37 indicates.
Can you explain what you mean by this. Ezekiel 37 has been interpreted several different ways. Do you think that all of Ezekiel 37 has been fulfilled with the reformation of the Nation of Israel?
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