You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
yeah, i dont know about the conquest, but there is no evidence for an exodus nor is there evidence for a 40 year wondering in the wilderness.
that much people for that much time over that distance – there should be something, yet there is not. This lack of evidence lends itself as evidence for those events being made up.
but if I’m wrong, surely you can give your evidence that shows it did happen…
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“Can you explain what you mean by this. Ezekiel 37 has been interpreted several different ways. Do you think that all of Ezekiel 37 has been fulfilled with the reformation of the Nation of Israel?”
As I have already stated my reference to Ezekiel 37 was to the first part that indicates when they did return it would be from a hopeless state. There are a ton loads of passages about the return of jews to their home land.
What is the point of your question? Your argument up to this point is that its ho hom ordinary for them to have come back after a few thousand years and and that a people can take back anywhere they want to take. Further since your claim was that it was not unheard of for an ancient people to reclaim their national status thousands of years after being dispossessed maybe you can answer a question for once and name two
Where are they?
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“What is the point of your question?” – mike
ezekiel 37 says several things, much more than jews will return to israel, so do you think ezekiel 37 has been fulfilled despite the parts that have not come to pass?
“Your argument up to this point is that its ho hom ordinary for them to have come back after a few thousand years and and that a people can take back anywhere they want to take. Further since your claim was that it was not unheard of for an ancient people to reclaim their national status thousands of years after being dispossessed maybe you can answer a question for once and name two” – mike
the jews returned to israel before, after their captivity. what is there in ezekiel to say which return he’s talking about? and since the return to israel hasnt been as Ezekiel describes, why are you so quick to say it’s been fulfilled?
maybe fraction-filled…
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Ladies and Gentlemen, for your further entertainment I give you word contortionist, Mike!
This is what you said I claimed:
Further since your claim was that it was not unheard of for an ancient people to reclaim their national status thousands of years after being dispossessed…
This is what I really said:
The Jews are quite nationalistic. Throughout the OT that is what can be seen. It was and still is important for them to keep their tribe/tribes together. So for one or a number of them to predict that, even though they might be scattered or in captivity, they would one day be a Nation again wouldn’t be all that unheard of and they had been working toward that end.
So, no,I didn’t say it was just a regular old everyday occurrence that people just reclaim their national status thousands of years after being dispossessed. I said it wasn’t unheard of for one or a number of them to predict that they were going to because their tribalism is important to them.
So you say:
There are a ton loads of passages about the return of jews to their home land.
Bingo! Mikey’s got it! Hey, we agreed about something. I do believe in miracles. I do!
Now, Mikey? Wanna tell me what group of people takes possession of land they didn’t really, really want?
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“It’s a fact that evidence exists for the truth of Christianity..” – no, it isn’t.
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and ezekiel 38 and 39 speak of israel and the nations from the north as fighting with spears, swords, arrows and riding horses.
Ezekiel apparently wrote the original screenplay of the “postman” except that it was set in Palestine.
or, Ezekiel was just rambling and thought he talking about a much nearer future – before horses and arrows went out of style. I would agree that it could be figurative language, expect that ezekiel talks about it so much, that you realize he seriously has specific uses for the horses, because they’ll be eaten by the birds because there’ll be so many dead from war. Israel, after defeating its enemies, will no longer need their weapons and will burn them for fuel, so that they dont have to go the wilderness to find wood.
Ezekiel… what a marvelous example of clear divine prophecy.
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more “fulfilled prophecies” – who can deny such proof?
FINGER PRINTS
“Their skins will bear witness against them as to what they have been doing” (41:21)
The finger prints system at borders, criminal investigation cells and immigration centres prove the fulfillment of this Quranic prophecy.
POLLUTION
“Corruption has spread on land and sea because of what men�s hands have wrought” (30:42)
One of the interpretations of the above verse of the Holy Quran is the environmental pollution, caused by human being. And that is spread both in land and sea due to our own inventions, i.e., fumes from chimneys of factories, chemical and nuclear waste, huge traffic in the cities, noise and creation of ozone hole are manifest testimonies of the fulfillment of this prophecy.
ESTABLISHMENT OF ISRAEL
And after him We said to the Children of Israel, ‘Dwell Ye in the promised land; and when the time of the promise of the Latter Days come, We shall bring you together out of various people.” (17:105)
Creation of Israel and gathering of Sephardic, Ashkenazi and the Jews of many other different races in Israel proves the authenticity of this prophecy and hence Quran.
GENETIC ENGINEERING
“They will alter Allah’s creation.” (4:120)
The holy Quran has prophesied the plastic surgery, genetic engineering and cloning in this short and concise sentence
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“So, no,I didn’t say it was just a regular old everyday occurrence that people just reclaim their national status thousands of years after being dispossessed. ”
Oh so now its unusual? eh? Fair enough that I read you wrong on the unheard of part (given it was such a stupid statement since in fact we were talking about a prophecy that duh had been heard of…redundant much?) but your narrative has been that its an easily explainable event. Or did you forget you were defending Nate’s claim that there were no real prophecies in the Bible? You did didn’t you? lol
SO OK you are going all in with the if a people really really really really really really want something badly enough it will happen regardless but then this would again beg the question of what evidence you are basing this claim on in regard to land grabs after thousands of years
Surely not your own imagination? Not you the science based atheist Right? You would have to have some evidence that it was possible. Surely a drop of evidence that dispossessed people actually have done such things you claim are easily possible if they really just want it bad enough. So AGAIN for once in your life ask answer a question
Where are they? or is your claim that no dispossessed nation before the Jews wanted it enough?
Your ducking and weaving is hilarious
“Now, Mikey? Wanna tell me what group of people takes possession of land they didn’t really, really want?”
None I just don’t know the la la land you live in where people just wanting something makes it happen. Is this Krauss’s next installment Ruthie (since we are changing names to get close I suppose – lol) ? I have to admit its easier than Christianity. We have to pass the if it is his will test but you Kraussites are going to get a lot of converts with the merely wish it and it will be so doctrine. Quantum fluctuations to the max!
Its just going to get messy though since as in the past even so now people really do seem to want their countries or even ones that are not their own. We’ll have a new government every year EVERYWHERE. Good thing is no matter what language you speak it will be only a matter of time before its the native language (though it won’t last long). Half cup full kid of thing I tell you! 🙂
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…but your narrative has been that its an easily explainable event. Or did you forget you were defending Nate’s claim that there were no real prophecies in the Bible? You did didn’t you? lol
Nah, I didn’t forget. But your narrative seems to include that it’s an explainable event. No need for any supernatural intervention for the Jews to reclaim their land. Am I getting that part wrong? I don’t think so:
“the other thing that you have been corrected on but you can’t seem to get though your noggin
is that just because there are rational non miraculous reasons for a prophecy being fulfilled it doesn’t mean that the prophecy is not fulfilled. A prophecy need not be about something miraculous. “ – Mike
So the miraculous part is that some Jews said they were going to do it?
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mike, care to share how Ezekiel 37 was fulfilled when the jews didnt come back to Israel the way that ezekiel said they would?
Who cares how many other nations we deposed, run out of their land, but came back to it?
Who lived in Israel when the jews werent there? maybe they were the original inhabitants prior to the hebrews?
maybe the jews came back and it was merely coincidence that ezekel actually got something right, because everything else in his prophecies usually failed. if you want to say that’s good evidence for a prefect god, then okay, you’re free to do so.
maybe it was like ruth said and the jews had wanted to go back to their promised land so badly, that they just did it, and that’s why it doesnt match up perfectly with Ezekiel prophecy. they tried fulfilling it, but only got a fraction right.
you look a tyre and declare it has been destroyed and never rebuilt, despite the city being there. yet you read ezekiel 37, and take one small part of the prophecy, and declare it fulfilled? You’re all over the place and lack consistency as well as tact and intelligence.
if those are good prophecies, then the koran’s are pretty good too.
Funny that you keep avoiding ezekiel 37 and only want to focus on verse 21, while ignoring the rest – because nothing else has happened..
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“Nah, I didn’t forget. But your narrative seems to include that it’s an explainable event. No need for any supernatural intervention for the Jews to reclaim their land. Am I getting that part wrong? I don’t think so:”
Oh vey…….You must be even more dense than I though Ruthie. When the Bible prophecies a country would be attacked by another country did you think it means that angels would come through the city walls? Oooh oooh its a prophecy so there must be a divine miracle involved
Is this it? Is this all you have? Some silly idea that a prophecy has to involve a miracle.
Good night ….See how I know you know nothing about the bible much less this committed Christian you pretend to have been?
“So the miraculous part is that some Jews said they were going to do it?”
Go read a book. get some knowledge and come back. You can claim that Jews wanted their country , you can claim they lobbied and assisted others but to say they did it just shows you are clueless
meanwhile no answer of this happening to any other country. Just crickets to the one question put to you because obviously according to your narrative ….no other ancient group ever wanted it really really really badly enough. lol.
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“Is this it? Is this all you have? Some silly idea that a prophecy has to involve a miracle.
Good night ….See how I know you know nothing about the bible much less this committed Christian you pretend to have been?”
BAHAHHAHAHA! from a guy who declares ezekiel 37 has been fulfilled because jews are in israel, but cant offer a peep about the rest of the chapter (and following) where a lot was not “fulfilled…”
So, how was ezekiel 37 fulfilled again, oh yeah, jews live there….
of course, not the way that ezekiel said they would, but… “Fufilled!” maybe, mike, if you say it many more times, other people may start to believe it too.
maybe it just hasnt happened yet? maybe we should give all prophecies till the end of time before we can be sure whether they panned out or not?
are you really this absurd or is this an act?
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Oh vey…….You must be even more dense than I though Ruthie. When the Bible prophecies a country would be attacked by another country did you think it means that angels would come through the city walls? Oooh oooh its a prophecy so there must be a divine miracle involved
Is this it? Is this all you have? Some silly idea that a prophecy has to involve a miracle.
Good night ….See how I know you know nothing about the bible much less this committed Christian you pretend to have been?
See, Mikey, this is why I have trouble conversing with you and even taking you very seriously. I have to keep explaining the same tired stuff over and over again. No, I never thought any angels were going to come through any city walls(though in the OT Joshua supposedly marched around Jericho and blew his horn and that brought the walls down, so I’m not sure why that would be out of the question). But you take things that have a very natural explanation and apply some miraculous quality to them, as if without the aid of your God pulling the strings and orchestrating things behind the scenes, using natural processes, it couldn’t possibly happen.
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Ron, RE: Arch said: “There’s further evidence that all of the cities that “Joshua” allegedly conquered, were destroyed long before the time that Joshua allegedly lived – there WAS no Joshua,”
Thanks for the Jericho link! You’ll find this hard to believe, because it sounds almost supernatural, but as I was writing that part (above) to Kathy, I was thinking to myself, “E equals MC squared to the powe- ooooh, shiny!” – No, wait, that was yesterday – I was thinking that I had done so much research for Kathy that she had rejected out of hand, labeling it “Liberal” because it didn’t agree with her pre-conceived notions, that I just didn’t have it in me to do it yet another time, BUT, I was thinking, if anyone could do it, it would be Ron – sure would be nice if he would –”
And you did – thanks.
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Go read a book. get some knowledge and come back. You can claim that Jews wanted their country , you can claim they lobbied and assisted others but to say they did it just shows you are clueless
I have claimed that the Jews wanted that land, and I claimed that they lobbied for it and that the got assistance. Where’d I claim they just did it? Go find me the quote and we’ll talk about it. You can’t, because I didn’t say it. Did I call it a self-fulfilling prophecy? I sure did. Does that mean they couldn’t get some help? Nope.
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ROFL…….Look at this lying souls paragraph showing above my last post
“Funny that you keep avoiding ezekiel 37 and only want to focus on verse 21, while ignoring the rest – because nothing else has happened..”
I haven’t even mentioned Ezekiel 37:21 and he’s bare faced lying about me focusing on it. 🙂
No shame. No integrity (par for his course) I can only imagine the hilarious nonsense he has in the rest of the post… lol
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if someone predicted that an earthquake would hit alabama, but didnt give anytime line, should we think that person had divine guidance if an earthquake hit alabama thousands of years later?
earthquakes in alabama aren’t impossible, only extremely rare.
now, if someone said that alabama was going to be hit by an earthquake in 2035, and it happened, that may be pretty neat. If they were even more precise with the date/time/details, it gives more credibility to the individual prophesying as really being a prophet.
so here we have ezekiel, who says (during the period of time that they had been taken captive) that jews will come from all over to come back to israel, and he also says that they will not be religiously corrupt and that they will be united under one king in david’s family (and more) – but the only thing that happened was the return of the jews, first when the persians took control and again thousands of years later (the time you’re talking about).
no specific time line and a details werent met.
so, how again is this a fulfilled prophecy?
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“I haven’t even mentioned Ezekiel 37:21 and he’s bare faced lying about me focusing on it. :)” ,mike
mike, that’s the verse that talks about the jews returning to israel – you know, the event you keep talking about… have you read ezekiel 37?
are you that stupid?
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“No shame. No integrity (par for his course) I can only imagine the hilarious nonsense he has in the rest of the post… lol” – mike
as if you haven’t read them…
you just dont want to really talk about what ezekiel “prophesied.”
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“You can do radio carbon dating till you fall on your face if the alleged chronology is wrong then you cannot prove anything from it.” – Mr. Pretzel says, “If you can’t twist the science, twist the time, or some other variable.” He ‘s also good at balloon animals, and is available for children’s birthday parties —
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” No, I never thought any angels were going to come through any city walls(though in the OT Joshua supposedly marched around Jericho and blew his horn and that brought the walls down, so I’m not sure why that would be out of the question).”
Hey if you got a prophecy that says that that was to be involved for the return of the jews to get back their nation then go for it. However since we both know thats just diversion then try a good point. do you have one? can you guy one? Call a friend? us up another lifeline?
“But you take things that have a very natural explanation and apply some miraculous quality to them, ”
lie all you want Ruth. Its what you do. I am the one that has said about five times now prophecies don’t have to involve miracles. Its the fact that things are known beforehand not that the things are miraculous.
“Did I call it a self-fulfilling prophecy? I sure did.”
Yea and thats PRECISELY why I told you to go read a book because anyone who does knows that the UN and Britain made it happen. Your insinuation like the Brits and UN were just supporting bit players is drivelling nonsense. You can’t have a self fulfilling prophecy where the fulfillment is not dependent of the self.
What other stupid argument will you come up with next? oh well lets feed the fire just for kicks and giggles 😦 shucks why not?
Maybe the jews arranged to be locked in a siege in the 1967 war which sounds eirily close to Zechariah 12
Zechariah 12:2-3 (KJV)
2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
or how maybe they figured out how they would be guaranteed to overcome a greater fighting force (also promised in the Torah)
Zechariah 12:6 (KJV)
6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
Or maybe the guy writing thousands of years ago self fulfilled the technology that would be involved make this come true
New American Standard Bible Esekiel 34:29
“I will establish for them a renowned planting place, and they will not again be victims of famine in the land, and they will not endure the insults of the nations anymore.
cause yeah it was easy and to be expected that a country low in rainfall would become a major producer of fruit to Europe and reknown for their farms
Two more for kicks and Giggles that you can duck and weave and never answer a question on 🙂
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“He ‘s also good at balloon animals, and is available for children’s birthday parties –”
anything where Guy panties are not involved so you just won’t be able to come along until you get some Fruit of the looms or hanes (men’s) Nothing freaky around the kids
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“What other stupid argument will you come up with next? oh well lets feed the fire just for kicks and giggles 😦 shucks why not?”
Even Nostradamus prophecies are clearer than what you are proposing ! 🙂
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“See, Mikey, this is why I have trouble conversing with you and even taking you very seriously.”
And you shouldn’t take him seriously either. He thinks his commentary on scripture is 100 % proof and all should accept it. You can’t reason with someone like this. He truly believes he and the bible are infallible .
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