You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
What everyone needs to understand, is that Mike suffers from some serious self-esteem issues, and can only elevate himself (in his mind), by putting down someone else. He sees himself on one side of a seesaw, and others on the other, and as long as they’re down, he believes that he’s up. Sad, really.
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William said:
“okay, yet again, what is the evidence that shows how christian martyrdom is more legit than other martyrs? Please, dont talk about how suicide bombers dont count, let’s just assume we’re talking about all the nonviolent martyrs…”
First, you need to identify the “peaceful” martyrs of other religions that you are referring to. The martyrs I refer to are Jesus’ disciples (to start with). Then we can compare them.
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“The martyrs I refer to are Jesus’ disciples.” – Well, that’s a start. Which disciples, where and how did they die, and what source gives you this information?
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I’m tapping my toe, Kathy – this is your big chance to finally produce your incontrovertible COMPELLING evidence! Speak up, or forever hold your peace.
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Everyone knows the martyrs I’m referring to.. again, the objective historians believe the disciples were martyred.. there’s no reason to believe they weren’t since Christianity was under so much persecution during their lives.. and there’s no evidence that disproves their martyrdom. I’ll find the historical evidence that’s out there and post it, but I still want some examples of the others that you and William claim are “no different”.. so we can see who’s right.
Why don’t you help William out.. he seems to need it.. who are the other peaceful martyrs other than Christians? And please include names and other pertinent specifics.
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“Everyone knows the martyrs I’m referring to.. again, the objective historians believe the disciples were martyred” – Not everyone, I don’t. Please list the “objective” historians as well. As for helping William, he’s a big boy.
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Arch, you said:
““equal intellect”? children have “equal intellect” with adults who require evidence?
What would you say the ratio was, Kathy – hoiw many of those “billions” of believers require evidence, versus how many like you, believe on faith?”
Again, you’re displaying a lack of understanding of the key words.. there is no evidence for santa being real.. staring with people who claim he was real and gave their lives to testify to that. There’s no book of many different authors testifying to santa’s existence. There’s no archaeological evidence that supports the truth of the Book.. and there’s no fulfilled prophecies to testify to santa’s existence. This is all evidence. Is it empirical proof? no. No one is claiming it is. But this evidence is COMBINED with faith.. and it gives a valid explanation for our existence. There is no other explanation that makes more sense.. none other with more evidence.. scientific or otherwise.
YOU have NOTHING.. no idea of why we exist or how. That’s incredible when you think about it.. it’s pretty sad too. Especially when you ridicule others for actually having the guts to acknowledge the obvious that atheists are too scared and prideful to do.
“Of those who make the claim for Jesus, how many have ever been verified as having seen him?”
You conveniently ignored this point I presented to William.. So, that means you dismiss pretty much all known history, since it’s based on the accounts of people who used the accounts of witnesses/others.
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““Everyone knows the martyrs I’m referring to.. again, the objective historians believe the disciples were martyred” – Not everyone, I don’t. Please list the “objective” historians as well. As for helping William, he’s a big boy.”
You aren’t aware of the universally accepted belief of Christians of the martyrdom of Jesus’ disciples? I don’t believe you.. especially if you were once a Christian, Arch.
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Sorry it’s taken me so long to get back everybody. Families weekend is actually Wed and Thur. But back to it I guess:)
@”The BIRD”
“I just like saying that. ‘The B-I-R-D’” – When was the last time you asked how I feel about it?
I try not to concern myself with the feelings of the little people.
@Arkenaten
“Wotcha, Mike! Still being a d’head I see?
Good for you!”
I love you.
@William
Thank you for the compliment earlier. Of course you know I’m still going to do my best to irritate the hell out of you later, don;t you?
@NaughtyNumerologist
In regards to Santa v. God, Expects sacrifices, tithes and cookies — check
I’m supposed to be tithing to Santa?… That explains so much about my poor Christmas.
@William
“I also have a mamma, and wouldn’t want anyone mocking her regarding her weight or intelligence because she’s so fat, that on a trip to sea world, she thought shamu was her reflection and tried spitting the trainers out of her mouth.”
Sooooo how is your mother’s lawsuit against the city coming along? You know. The one where they built the sidewalk to close to her @$$.
@”The BIIIIIIIRRRRRRDah”
[“The feeling is mutual, my dear. *hugs*” – So THIS is what it feels like to get bowled over by a tsunami of estrogen –!] Do I want to know what this is about?
@Ron
President Bush said to all of us: ‘I am driven with a mission from God’. God would tell me, ‘George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan’. And I did. And then God would tell me ‘George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq’. And I did.”
Mr Bush went on: “And now, again, I feel God’s words coming to me, ‘Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East’. And, by God, I’m gonna do it.”
I think he was confusing God with Dick Cheney, Ron.
Now, since I said this like two weeks ago I feel a little stupid saying it again but, WHY ARE YOU PEOPLE TALKING TO MIKE?! The man is an internet Troll! His answers vary depending on his post.
Two things before I go.
1) Ruth, I said I didn’t care what the bible said and you just let it go. That is weak young lady. I expected better from you now get to it and think up a really good come back on that one. I just took away Arkenaten’s greatest tool for deconverting Bible worshipers and you just let it slide. Don’t make me sic him on you for letting the “A” movement down.
2) Proof of GOD! Bible codes. You guys didn’t give me an answer last time so now it is official. I know God is real because there are codes in the Bible which are easy to find and spell out things that the orriginal authors could not have known.
So there you go kids. You wanted proof of God’s existence? I give you Bible codes.
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“there is no evidence for santa being real..” – there is no evidence of a god being real.
“YOU have NOTHING.. no idea of why we exist or how.” – I have scientific hypotheses, you have nothing but a fantasy story, with no evidence to back it up. Science has already proven that the earth is billions of years old, rather than the 6,000 the Bible says it is, but I’m sure that Mike can explain that easily – the Egyptian calendar was off by a few billion years. I would much rather say, “We don’t know, but we have some pretty good ideas,” than to live in a fantasy world.
Science has already proven that we weren’t “created” as modern man, but evolved from more primitive primates, not in some garden in the deserts of Mesopotamia, but in the heart of the African rain forest.
We have people who see the Virgin Mary in a cloud formation and Jesus burned onto a grilled cheese sandwich, and thousands have claimed to have unraveled the ravings of Nostradamus, it’s not hard to find idiots who will claim that a Bronze Age prophesy came true in modern times, even though it was only meant, at the time, for the immediate future. “The Jews will come back to Israel!” – that was a stretch, wasn’t it? Only the elite of Jerusalem were taken by the Babylonians, the commoners never left, and of those who did, even some of them chose not to return. Of course Jews returned to Israel, and they didn’t wait for the holocaust to do it.
John Hinkley was willing to die for his love affair with Jodi Foster, despite the fact that Ms Foster had never met him – there are always some crackpots with poor self-esteem, who are willing to die for some cause or other, just to give their pathetic lives meaning – throw in the fear of burning for eternity in a lava Jacuzzi, and you have the perfect martyr.
It has been proven that Moses was not the author the the five books ascribed to him, and that the authors of the gospels were unknown, un-credentialed writers who never met Yeshua. If I had a school textbook with that many errors in it, I’d seriously suspect anything else it had to say.
Far more of archaeology proves that events in the Bible didn’t happen the way the book says they did, than prove that they did. Take a trip to Nazareth (nestled in a valley) and send me back a selfie of the cliff that pseudo-Luke said the townspeople were trying to throw Jesus off of – I’ll wait —
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“You aren’t aware of the universally accepted belief of Christians of the martyrdom of Jesus’ disciples? I don’t believe you.. especially if you were once a Christian, Arch.” – let’s take these one at a time, last one first:
Neuro was a washed-in-the-blood for 20 years, actually working inside her church, Ruth was as well, along with Nate and many others. I, on the other hand, was a “Christian” until about the age of 12, when my intellect began kicking in, and over the next 6-8 years, slowly sloughed off the last of that fantasy. I had never even read the Bible, but by age 6, I was noticing, in National Geographic magazines, all of the other different religions over the world, and even then, was asking my Mom how we knew that ours was the RIGHT one – “It just is, that’s all,” even coming from her, never did strike me as a very sound explanation.
As for the martyrs, yes, I vaguely remember there were supposed to have been some, but then there was supposed to have been a cliff in Nazareth. Just to be sure we’re on the same page, and to take all of the guesswork out of it, I’d rather you told me exactly who they were, how they died, and what – besides the circular reasoning of the Bible, which has already proven to be unreliable – your sources of information are.
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@ Hayden —
“Sorry it’s taken me so long to get back everybody.” – You were gone?
“‘The feeling is mutual, my dear. *hugs*’ – So THIS is what it feels like to get bowled over by a tsunami of estrogen –! – Do I want to know what this is about?”
Some time back, I stumbled onto Neuro and VioletWisp (you may not know her) giving “hugs,” and more recently, Neuro and Ruth – I’ve learned to work past that by imagining them naked. (Oh, am I ever gonna catch hell for that!)
“So there you go kids. You wanted proof of God’s existence? I give you Bible codes.” – How many boxtops of communion wafers do I have to send in to get the decoder ring?
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““YOU have NOTHING.. no idea of why we exist or how.” – I have scientific hypotheses, you have nothing but a fantasy story, with no evidence to back it up. Science has already proven that the earth is billions of years old, rather than the 6,000 the Bible says it is, but I’m sure that Mike can explain that easily – the Egyptian calendar was off by a few billion years.”
Nah….The Jews in their writings had that explained like what 400-500? years before Darwin. Problematic for atheists eh? Not in response to any scientific discovery. But shuckems why talk about that. We have your more spectacular thesis to explore. tell us some more evidence for the everything coming out of absolutely nothing discovery in fact scratch that “more” – Our eyes will light with pure fascination if you give us any real evidence? None you can reveal without a secret Kraussite handshake? then at least tell us how you propose to even test the thesis.
yes….we know it won;t make any sense whatsoever if you try, but then laughter they say is good for the heart…….so theres that.. 😉
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“Neuro was a washed-in-the-blood for 20 years, actually working inside her church, Ruth was as well, along with Nate and many others. I, on the other hand, was a “Christian” until about the age of 12, when my intellect began kicking in,”
None of us believe that narrative anymore so you can write it all you want but the evidence that has emerged in our actual conversations that contradicts it make it pointless . I mean its a pretty long thread so its unlikely a newb will be reading it. save the fingers – Carpal tunnel Syndrome public announcement.
Actually your story sounds close to Williams “born Christian” comment.
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Hey, Mikey – you never did tell us which of Neuro’s scenarios brought you to the sunny shores of Christianity – please, do tell —
I’ll bet you have Christians emailing you, saying “Hey Mike – don’t help us! We’re beggin’ ya!”
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“Hey, Mikey – you never did tell us which of Neuro’s scenarios brought you to the sunny shores of Christianity – please, do tell –”
Why worry about that bro? You got that everything out of nothing evidence you were going to fascinate us with. We’re still waiting popcorn in hand. When’s the movie going to start?
“I’ll bet you have Christians emailing you, saying “Hey Mike – don’t help us! We’re begging’ ya!””
Tip of the day: don’t ever go to Vegas. Welfare will be your next stop.
Incidentally Where are all these Christians trying desperately to win you “back”? Too busy watching paint dry? See how the over rated idea of your importance doesn’t match reality?
Hold on…..maybe they will pop out of nothing…..wait………………no still not here. Call Krauss. QM is on the fritz…or maybe talk to Ruth. You just might not want it enough.
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No, no, Mike – you don’t get off that easy, with just a few lines that only you think are clever – you said you weren’t raised in a religious atmosphere, so which of Neuro’s scenarios brought you to it? I’m guessing brain injury, right? Because you certainly fit the profile —
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Point of order – You brought up everything out of nothing weeks ago and we have been waiting for the evidence for it since then old timer.
Confucious say he who take weeks to answer question no man should talky talk about brain damage. Chop chop – verifiable evidence for everything coming out of absolute nothing…can’t waste nother bag of popcorn. Pepsi get Flat too. no good
lol
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Changing the subject may have gotten you off the hook in thee past, Mikey, but not here – which of those major disorders brought you to Cheesus?
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But this evidence is COMBINED with faith — Kathy
There you have it, folks. The evidence that Kathy offers must be COMBINED with faith. How could you-all have missed that?
Don’t you see? There is no empirical proof. Instead, the “facts” that Kathy presents must be commingled with a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers. Once you have that, folks, it will all become clear.
Can’t understand how everyone missed that!??!
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“Changing the subject may have gotten you off the hook in thee past,”
Sorry. New reality. Ducking from answering an evidence request for your extraordinary claims that everything came out of absolutely nothing might have worked for you before I came here but those days are done as long as i am here.
Popcorn is still getting cold. Chop chop. Whats the matter Arch? Why don’t you just blow the Bible Thumping Christian away with your verifiable evidence that everything came out of absolutely nothing?
One would begin to think…… egads! – you don’t have any and are ummmm….(i’ll say it in hushed tones in case any of your comrades are nearby)
operating by faith.
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How badly are you going to screw that girl up, Mikey, with your Christian dogma, telling a brain-damaged girl that she is guilty of sin from birth due to some myth written three thousand years ago by some Bronze Age priests?
If your such a believer, why don’t you just lay hands on her and heal her? Your bible says you can do that, IF your faith is strong enough. But then, maybe yours isn’t.
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“Don’t you see? There is no empirical proof. Instead, the “facts” that Kathy presents must be commingled with a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers.”
YOU mean like Arch and the everything out of absolutely nothing claim???
“Can’t understand how everyone missed that!??!”
In the case of Arch’s claim with no empirical evidence you might have missed it before but I didn’t…..but ahem…..you had to miss his answer because …..he’s presented none.
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So which is it, Mikey – do you have enough faith to heal her, or are you a big, tough Christian only on blogsites, where what passes in your mind for funny quips, is all you got?
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Nan said:
“Don’t you see? There is no empirical proof. Instead, the “facts” that Kathy presents must be commingled with a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers. Once you have that, folks, it will all become clear.”
Nan, you seem to have a “selective reading” problem.. I’ve stated several times that there is no empirical proof.. there is no claim by Christians of the kind of empirical proof atheists demand.
YES! I AM claiming that faith is a key element.. I’ve explained several times WHY I believe God has CHOSEN to not give us empirical proof.
Faith is something that grows.. and it starts with applying OBJECTIVITY to the information/ facts we DO have… aka the EVIDENCE. You and all atheists can choose to IGNORE (root word for IGNORANCE) this evidence and continue to demand empirical proof, but as I’ve already pointed several times also.. it won’t get you anywhere.. because it’s not actually you who gets to make the “rules”.. it’s your Creator. 🙂
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