You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
And I guess, Mike, that we’re still awaiting “empirical evidence” of yours and Kathy’s claims that “God” created everything.
Appears to be a stand-off.
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“How badly are you going to screw that girl up, Mikey, with your Christian dogma, telling a brain-damaged girl that she is guilty of sin from birth due to some myth written three thousand years ago by some Bronze Age priests?”
HAHAHA….Sorry you haven’t figured it out. Its kind of like trying to tell the same joke over and over again. If you thought you could upset me again by going back to that little girl I’m now impervious. you been there done that it has no effect. the only lasting thing you and William have done by persisting in that tactic is to give me a come back any time you say anything about what I said to Nuero. So thanks
“that she is guilty of sin from birth due to some myth written three thousand years ago by some Bronze Age priests?”
”
Free her Arch Free her. Give me the verifiable evidence for everything coming out of absolutely nothing or tell me where the experiment was conducted without something.
“If your such a believer, why don’t you just lay hands on her and heal her? Your bible says you can do that, IF your faith is strong enough. But then, maybe yours isn’t.”
Need a hanky? If I supply one can we have this world shattering evidence of everything coming out of absolutely nothing? She’s fine. Loving people, loving God, having a blast. I read your posts of rage and think – Perhaps we have the whole definition of mental illness wrong. IF theists are right and you are wrong then guess which One god will say needed more mental healing? I know you never want it from me but if you decide you do need prayer I am sure Kathy would oblige.
Plus think about it – is the little girl the one proposing that everything came out of absolutely nothingness?
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Arch said:
““there is no evidence for santa being real..” – there is no evidence of a god being real.”
Sorry.. there is tons of evidence for God being real. That you refuse to acknowledge it is your problem.. and calling it a “problem” is an understatement.
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“And I guess, Mike, that we’re still awaiting “empirical evidence” of yours and Kathy’s claims that “God” created everything.
Appears to be a stand-off.
”
Great!! IF the best your side can do to the big questions of reality and life (besides tinkering around what happened AFTER we already had life) is propose an unverifiable everything came out of absolutely nothing thesis then your claims of superiority have been utterly defeated and you are on the same level as theism at best.
Arch presenting Krauss unscientific philosophy has proved for all time that you all will swallow a proposition that is not testable and that is even unfalsifiable – proving that evidence is not really your guys thing and sorry neither is allegiance to pure science.
Thanks are in order.
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So I take it that is your inimitable (and long-winded) way of saying you don’t have enough faith to do it. It was like pulling teeth, but at last you admit it.
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Arch cont..
““YOU have NOTHING.. no idea of why we exist or how.” – I have scientific hypotheses, you have nothing but a fantasy story, with no evidence to back it up. Science has already proven that the earth is billions of years old, rather than the 6,000 the Bible says it is, but I’m sure that Mike can explain that easily – the Egyptian calendar was off by a few billion years. I would much rather say, “We don’t know, but we have some pretty good ideas,” than to live in a fantasy world.
Science has already proven that we weren’t “created” as modern man, but evolved from more primitive primates, not in some garden in the deserts of Mesopotamia, but in the heart of the African rain forest.”
WHAT is your scientific hypotheses Arch?? Evolution is NOT the answer to how it all began. You/ science doesn’t EVEN have a hypotheses for that! And you continue to ignore this. (ignore is the root word for ignorance btw).
And science has NOT proven that we evolved from pond scum. That’s an UNPROVEN theory.
If you want to put your “faith” in POND SCUM.. again, that’s your choice.. whatever.. to each his own I guess.
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“John Hinkley was willing to die for his love affair with Jodi Foster, despite the fact that Ms Foster had never met him – there are always some crackpots with poor self-esteem, ..”
Jesus’ disciples weren’t “crackpots”.. there is nothing in the Bible that indicates that they were anything other than sane rational people.
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Arch, cont.
“Far more of archaeology proves that events in the Bible didn’t happen the way the book says they did, than prove that they did. Take a trip to Nazareth (nestled in a valley) and send me back a selfie of the cliff that pseudo-Luke said the townspeople were trying to throw Jesus off of – I’ll wait –
http://www.biblewalks.com/sites/MtPrecipice.html
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“It has been proven that Moses was not the author the the five books ascribed to him, and that the authors of the gospels were unknown, un-credentialed writers who never met Yeshua.”
Cite the proof please.. I’ve already asked this several times I believe…
And make sure it’s PROOF… not opinions of biased atheists.
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Oh no, Kathy. I’m not going to let this one stand …
In case you’ve forgotten, the biblical definition of faith (Hebrews 11:1) is:
· ” … confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.” (NIV)
· ” … the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” (KJV)
· ” … the assurance that what we hope for will come about and the certainty that what we cannot see exists.” (ISV)
(Notice the word, “hope”)
The secular definition of faith is:
· “A strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny.”
OBJECTIVITY (judgment based on observable phenomena and uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices) and FAITH have nothing to do with one another.
There IS no observable phenomena to prove God exists. You cannot apply objectivity to faith because they are not compatible. The “evidence” you have presented is not “objective;” it is based entirely on your “faith.”.
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“It was like pulling teeth, but at last you admit it.”
Or Arch such weak rhetoric and hand waving, 🙂 How quickly they crumble
Still no evidence for your everything out of absolutely nothing faith?
tsk tsk… all that foaming at the mouth at “magic” and the “supernatural” and “man in the sky” only for you to be found in the same kind of boat and you without a paddle.
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“there is tons of evidence for God being real.” – as I’ve said repeatedly, Kathy, trot it out —
BTW, still waiting on the details about the martyrs —
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“In case you’ve forgotten, the biblical definition of faith (Hebrews 11:1) is:
· ” … confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.” (NIV)
· ” … the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” (KJV)
· ” … the assurance that what we hope for will come about and the certainty that what we cannot see exists.” (ISV)”
In case you have forgotten (or need glasses) the word evidence is right there in the text.
“OBJECTIVITY (judgment based on observable phenomena and uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices) and FAITH have nothing to do with one another.”
this silly Atheist rhetoric does not stand under observation for the simple reason that it is VERY recent definition being defied by historical realities.
“There IS no observable phenomena to prove God exists”
There is so much observable evidence that only in the last hundred years or two did anyone talk about faith not being based on the evidence. the world then and now is largely theistic because of that evidence that has not gone anywhere. It is merely a claim by atheists that Darwinian evolution wipes away all the prior evidence and its a claim which most of the world rejects.
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“And science has NOT proven that we evolved from pond scum. That’s an UNPROVEN theory.” – Science doesn’t say we evolved from pond scum, Kathy – if you’d take your head out of the sand long enough to actually read about evolution, you’d know that.
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” Science doesn’t say we evolved from pond scum, Kathy – if you’d take your head out of the sand long enough to actually read about evolution, you’d know that.”
Kathy what Arch meant to say there was that they have no workable theory how life came about. So its actually worse than you thought. They have no answers there (but they will tell you with great childlike faith that the answers will all in the future be materialistic in nature). Evolution concerns itself with the arrangement of the lego blocks. It doesn’t give any answers for the lego blocks themselves, how or why they fit together or how they do what they do.
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Oh yes, Mikey. I saw the word evidence in ONE of the biblical quotes I offered. But did you read the entire verse? “evidence of things not seen. In other words, the “evidence” is somewhere out there in ether-land.
And yes, that “silly atheist rhetoric” does stand. YOU are the one that is trying to discount it with your nonsensical comment about “being defied by historical realities.” (What in the world does THAT mean?)
And what kind of jibber-jabber is this comment … “only in the last hundred years or two did anyone talk about faith not being based on evidence.” Good grief, man! The bible is the one that says faith is not based on evidence and I daresay the bible has been around more than “the last hundred years or two.”
I must agree with others on this blog — you definitely have a talent for twisting words around to make them sound legit.
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Kathy …
MOSES AS AUTHOR
From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_authorship):
Today the majority of biblical scholars accept the theory that the Torah does not have a single author, and that its composition took place over centuries.
McDermott, John J., (2002). Reading the Pentateuch: a historical introduction. Pauline Press. p. 21. ISBN 978-0-8091-4082-4. Retrieved 2010-10-03
Read also, on this same web page, the part labeled “Documentary Hypothesis” for more information.
GOSPEL WRITERS
There is considerable information related to the gospel writers on Wikipedia. Simply type in “who wrote the gospels” and you will find the names and comments of scholars who support Arch’s perspective.
Try to step outside the box, Kathy, and read these articles without bias. You may learn something.
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This is why I wanted a selfie, Kathy, so I could see the sheepish look on your face. Nazareth is described by the Nazareth Chamber of Commerce as being, “Situated inside a bowl atop the Nazareth ridge north of the Jezreel valley, Nazareth was a relatively isolated village in the time of Jesus with a population less than two hundred.”
The ridge you mention, at Mt Kedumim, also known as Mt. Precipice – yes, I followed your link and read what it had to say, even though you’ve followed none of ours. The average human walks three miles per hour. The cliff you linked lies at 32.681791° N. X 35.298085° E, while Nazareth is situated at 32°42′07″N 35°18′12″E – that means the cliff in question lies 18.05 miles from Nazareth.
Can’t you just imagine an angry mob, grabbing Jesus by the scruff of the neck and walking him for six hours, just to throw him off a cliff? “Come on Jesus, just a few hours further, then you’re really gonna get yours!” Then, of course, there was the six-hour walk back – if you were gonna throw a guy off a cliff from Nazareth, you really had to pencil in the whole day! “I’ll be back in time for supper, Honey – we gotta go throw this guy off a cliff, see ya tonight!”
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“Oh yes, Mikey. I saw the word evidence in ONE of the biblical quotes I offered. But did you read the entire verse? “evidence of things not seen. In other words, the “evidence” is somewhere out there in ether-land”.
Sometimes your avatar does so well at conveying your thought processes. Evidences of things not seen does not mean the evidence is unseen it means its evidence of the thing that is not seen (why do I get the feeling this too will just fly right over your head.)
“And yes, that “silly atheist rhetoric” does stand. YOU are the one that is trying to discount it with your nonsensical comment about “being defied by historical realities.” (What in the world does THAT mean?)”
If your inability to understand something made it nonsensical then I fear a great deal of the world would be nonsensical. its pretty simple and I related it but let me see if I can write it in Crayon (so to speak). There was no viable alternative to theism’s design concept throughout most of history. It was considered to be entirely rational and based on the evidence for design. Therefore the idea that faith was opposed to or lacking any evidence is rebutted by the fact that theism was entirely consistent with the best explanations for life and the earth BY ALMOST ALL ACCOUNTS prior to around the 1800s. IF so then why would they define ti as counter to evidence?
” “only in the last hundred years or two did anyone talk about faith not being based on evidence.” Good grief, man! The bible is the one that says faith is not based on evidence and I daresay the bible has been around more than “the last hundred years or two.”
You can Daresay anything you poor undereducated silly soul because the Bible does not teach that faith is opposed to all evidence and the verse you cited does not make the claim you said it does. The word evidence is sitting right there but you ignore it because as you have already revealed you think it means the evidence is invisible rather than as the passage says the evidence is evidence for the invisible God.
You people are just so unbelievable silly. Why does the Bible say Jesus did miracles and point to them as witness to who he was if the idea was that faith should always be based on no evidence whatsoever? ENGAGE YOUR BRAIN
Whether you accept the evidences or not the questions is DOES THE BIBLE teach that faith operates outside of any evidence . It does NOT. If that were so the Bible would not claim to provide evidence that was alleged to have convinced anyone.
Jesus would not do miracles and point to them and say “they bare witness of me”
Peter would not say look at prophecy
Paul would not point to eyewitness evidence to Christ’s resurrection
and on and on. You can say all that is made up but what you can’t claim from those passages is that faith means not needing evidence because they attempt to supply evidence
You are totally clueless. You are just following the popular secular idea that faith is opposed to evidence whereas over and over belief is paired with the word “en” meaning “in” to believe in someone. You can do that for perfectly rational evidence based reasons. As in if my Mom says so I have faith in her. Is a faith in your Mom sans any evidence of who she is? and what she has done? No. Meanwhile for the greater span of history most people have held that the most rational evidence based conclusion for what they saw by way of design was theistic creation. they were not going against the evidence they had.
So address the verse instead of trying to put your own ideas into it. the word evidence is right there and it does NOT say the evidence is invisible. Thats YOU my dear doing your own twist and to use a phrase some of your friends have noted its
Such VAST silliness.
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I gave you proof of both, way back there, but because you’d rather bury your head in the sand than pay attention, you want me to do it all over again – well, go back and find it, sweetcheeks, put out a little of your own effort for a change!
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“And make sure it’s PROOF… not opinions of biased atheists.” – so, “proof,” to you means the opinions of biased Christians –?
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Question, Mikey – what created your god, or was he created out of nothing? Can I get an “Ommmmm?”
BTW, still waiting to hear why you can’t lay hands on your little girl with the big problem, and heal her —
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Wow! That was the most creative twisting of words you’ve done yet!
So if the evidence is unseen, it really means that it’s there, it’s just not seen.
Got it! IOW, use your imagination and you’ll “see it” for sure!
Oh boy! This is even better. The evidence is for an invisible God. Hmmmm. So the fact that I can’t see God is evidence that God is really there.
Oh c’mon, Mikey. The entire bible is based on faith operating outside of evidence.
My “silliness” is only surpassed by your silliness.
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The Documentary Hypothesis is also supported and described in detail in The New American Bible – nothing “atheist” about that —
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“The ridge you mention, at Mt Kedumim, also known as Mt. Precipice – yes, I followed your link and read what it had to say, even though you’ve followed none of ours. The average human walks three miles per hour. The cliff you linked lies at 32.681791° N. X 35.298085° E, while Nazareth is situated at 32°42′07″N 35°18′12″E – that means the cliff in question lies 18.05 miles from Nazareth.”
Its the weirdest thing. Google maps says its about a 30 minute walk (less since they had already put him out of the city) and this poor site says its right at the entrance of Nazareth
http://www.nazarethinfo.org/show_item.asp?levelId=63499
18 miles away is one loooooooong entrance
P.S. the separate word “cliff” is not in the greek. (go figure they mean it. they never check the text)
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