You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
Oops… Latin praecipitium ‘abrupt descent’, from praeceps, praecip(it)– ‘steep, headlong’.
Latin (from which we derive the word precipice) was already well-established prior to the 1st century BCE.
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Oh Mikey … you are unbelievable.
I never said a thing about God being visible but the evidence for him does not have to be or be nonexistent and the verse does not say the evidence is invisible.
Nobody said God was visible. You’re twisting things again. Let’s take it slowly.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1
Note those last six words. (In case you miss it … the evidence of things not seen..)
What does “unseen” mean? Look it up if you’re not sure.
Perhaps this version from the ISV will help:
Now faith is the assurance that what we hope for will come about and the certainty that what we cannot see exists.
And from the Holman Christian Standard Bible:
Now faith is the reality of what is hoped for, the proof of what is not seen.
Let me spell it out for you once again — to believe in God, you must believe in something you cannot see. This means you must have FAITH that something invisible is really around somewhere –even if you can’t see it.
One last comment on this subject — while I highly doubt any kind of god exists, I’m not making claims either way. What I am saying is that there is no “objective” evidence/proof that the bible god exists.
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“Oops… Latin praecipitium ‘abrupt descent’, from praeceps, praecip(it)- ‘steep, headlong’.”
Ooops …”steep”………….. that what I said
” its supplied as a noun because the verb means to throw headlong or down a precipice. cliff or height.”
Try harder Ron. 😉
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“Google maps puts it at about 30-40 minutes walk from inside Nazareth (presently) or less than 30 since he was already outside of the city” – I gave you longitude and latitude of both, also from Google – do the math, if you can – you may have to take off your shoes.
“already outside of the city” – the city then was 200 people, how many feet would one have to walk to be “outside the city”?
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“Let me spell it out for you once again — to believe in God, you must believe in something you cannot see. This means you must have FAITH that something invisible is really around somewhere –even if you can’t see it.”
Okay you went slow and it didn’t help you at all. Let me spell it out for you
You are dense.
Atomic physics tells us there are things called Quarks (and even more sub atomic particles we perhaps will never see). Unless we had a recent breakthrough no one has ever seen one individually. We however have all kinds of scientific evidence for their (and all the other particles we cannot see) existence for years now.
You lose – you CAN have evidence for things that cannot be seen. YOU personally may not accept the evidence but the passage is saying there is evidence of things unseen.
I’m sorry its really just too tiring to read you demonstrate post after post that you have no clue. I’m leaving off reading you as of now.
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” I gave you longitude and latitude of both, also from Google – do the math, if you can – you may have to take off your shoes.”
ROFL……….. Who cares what you gave me? What you gave showed you didn’t do any of your own research before displaying your ignorance . MT precipice is right outside of Nazareth. not 6 hours walk away.
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@Kathy,
You said,
I say: Citation(s) needed. In particular, I not been presented with sufficient evidence to believe your claim 2. (Moreover, I think there is more required to consider it as evidence for your case–as described in the first article linked below.)
You also said,
Emphasis mine (if it shows–the sentence beginning with “I’ll find”, if not).
So please do post the evidence to support your claim.
I’m not an expert, but I’ve done some reading on this, and though it’s possible I could be mistaken, I’m not just arguing from ignorance. So to save time in the back-and-forth, here are some articles on the matter that I find persuasive:
“Die for a Lie” won’t Fly
(Please try to get past the blog title of that first link. I’m interested in discussing points, reason, and evidence–not a hand-waving dismissal on account of “liberal atheist propaganda”. If that’s truly all it is, you ought to be able to dismantle it on the merits, on its own turf.
For the record, I am skeptical of his “simple math”, so please let’s not get hung up there.)
Who Would Die for a Lie? (1 of 2)
Who Would Die for a Lie? (2 of 2)
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Mikey, it’s been fun. However, I simply can’t leave without commenting how interesting it is that you used “SCIENCE” to back up your claim — especially when you and Kathy put so little credibility/faith in it.
Keep up the good work. HA!!!!
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Math really isn’t your strong suit, is it Mike? Other than sarcasm, do you even HAVE a strong suit?
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“Math really isn’t your strong suit, is it Mike? Other than sarcasm, do you even HAVE a strong suit?”
Yep…right now its watching you try to squirm around being wrong That its not a 6 hour walk 🙂 🙂 🙂
http://www.nazarethinfo.org/show_item.asp?levelId=63499
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mt+Precipice,+Nazareth/@32.7038875,35.2847923,13z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x151c4dde41d5363d:0xc64d2202bf15d953
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Geography isn’t my strong suit, and I don’t have a horse in this race about the distance to the cliff (or whatever it is).
That said, I’m not sure what your point was with the links, Mike. When I punch in walking directions from Nazareth to Mt. Precipice on Google maps, it estimates ~3.5km / 45 minutes.
Are you just going for 45 minutes < 6 hours? Or did I not start with the right part of Nazareth? (Is it big enough to matter?)
If I'm in the ball park, I wonder if it's realistic that an angry mob would try to force a would-be lynchee to go that distance.
Anyway, since I'm honestly asking, and admitting my ignorance on the issue, maybe try not being rude about it if you bother to respond.
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“32.7038875,35.2847923,13z?” – Sorry, Zeke – I’m sticking with Mt. Precipice: 32.681791 X 35.298085 E.
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“Are you just going for 45 minutes < 6 hours? Or did I not start with the right part of Nazareth? (Is it big enough to matter?)"
Of course it does. Look at the map
"If I'm in the ball park, I wonder if it's realistic that an angry mob would try to force a would-be lynchee to go that distance."
I wonder if its realistic for you to know where they were or where the the town limits were at that time.
"maybe try not being rude about it if you bother to respond."
Maybe just ask your question next time and skip your directions don't mean anything to me.
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““32.7038875,35.2847923,13z?” – Sorry, Zeke – I’m sticking with Mt. Precipice: 32.681791 X 35.298085 E.”
🙂 Stick with whatever you wish just makes it more hilarious the longer you deny being wrong.
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ratamacue0 said: “When I punch in walking directions from Nazareth to Mt. Precipice on Google maps, it estimates ~3.5km / 45 minutes.”
Ha! Which means they would have violated the Sabbath laws limiting journeys to 2000 cubits (~ 0.5 mi, 1 km) from home.
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@”The BIRD!!!”“So there you go kids. You wanted proof of God’s existence? I give you Bible codes.” – How many boxtops of communion wafers do I have to send in to get the decoder ring?
How the hell should I know! It’s YOUR job to disprove it not MINE!
Love you:)
Back @”The BIRD”
“I’ll bet you have Christians emailing you, saying “Hey Mike – don’t help us! We’re beggin’ ya!”
That would be me.
Back @ “The BIRD” again cause I love it so.
“Nazareth is described by the Nazareth Chamber of Commerce as being, “Situated inside a bowl atop the Nazareth ridge north of the Jezreel valley, Nazareth was a relatively isolated village in the time of Jesus with a population less than two hundred.”
Actually I think Arkenaten has some data on how Nazereth wasn’t even a town in Yeshua’s time.
Also: “Can’t you just imagine an angry mob, grabbing Jesus by the scruff of the neck and walking him for six hours, just to throw him off a cliff? “
Were they rednecks? Did they have beer? If so then YES. I can see them doing that.
OH Hey! NVM I see Ark showed up.
@KCChief,
I still haven’t watched that video but I should have time tonight. I want you to know this is still your fault. In the meantime though, can you tell me where you got the info on Constantine, “he Sun worshiper’s” Mom and her $$$ in the Holy land?
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Arch, you said:
” Then we do research, we look and see that Nazareth is in fact in a bowl-shaped valley, and there is no cliff anywhere nearby, so we know that verse simply isn’t true.”
See? You again prove me right.. you are making ASSUMPTIONS Arch.. and then call it “proof” that the Bible isn’t true. You don’t know all the details, or the people or how angry they were or their culture or the myriad of possible reasons for why they might take Him to the cliff.. EVEN if it was 18 miles away.. you are making unsupported assumptions.. based on what YOU would/ wouldn’t do TODAY, in YOUR culture and circumstances.. and ABSENCE of religion. So often the verses in the Bible are explained in further detail based when we apply the knowledge of the cultural /religious practices.. like not working on Sunday.. that are not always mentioned in the verses.. a concept you and others here haven’t been able to grasp yet. Instead you make ignorant assumptions based on YOUR circumstances.
And, if you are right and this story was fabricated, why even say they took Him to the “cliff”? Why not just say they took Him outside the town and attempted to stone Him? Which was the usual practice.
Mike,
I know that translation issues are always a possible explanation for seeming “errors”.. that’s what I meant by Arch and Nate and others making assumptions.. they assume everything is literal (because that’s how they read it, in the English language.. so it must be what it means! that narrow thinking of theirs again.. ). And they assume the times and culture and even the people are just as they are today.. there’s no difference between now and 2 thousand years ago.. there’s no “logical” reason that those people would act and react in any other way than how they would act today. To me, that’s just more evidence of narcissism… not being able to view something from someone else’s perspective.. someone from today or 2000 years ago.
None of these people here seem to be capable of doing that.
I read and posted the “cliff” passage and didn’t see any problem because I know that if there isn’t a “cliff” nearby as Arch claimed, there would be another reasonable explanation, like language/ cultural translation.. I don’t bother looking at Google or doing other extensive research for these kinds of things.. I’ve learned that there are too many possible explanations. Explanations that make much more sense than that the whole story and Bible are fabricated. That’s what doesn’t make any sense at all.. but that is what Arch and Nate and others are positing. It’s just not a reasonable supposition. Their deliberate ignorance is wasting so much of our energy and time I feel.
And Arch, I just want to make sure I understand.. are you claiming that because the “cliff” is supposedly 18 miles away.. that this is evidence for the Bible not being true?
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“Ha! Which means they would have violated the Sabbath laws limiting journeys to 2000 cubits (~ 0.5 mi, 1 km) from home.”
Unfortunately for you Sparky II. Rat is definitely including travel within the town limits and the modern town at that which is bigger. jews had a number of ways to extend the distance
http://biblehub.com/topical/s/sabbath_day%27s_journey.htm
even if in their righteous rage they were watching that. I can understand you guys wanting to bail out Arch and his big blunder but you are going to have to try harder.
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“I read and posted the “cliff” passage and didn’t see any problem because I know that if there isn’t a “cliff” nearby as Arch claimed, there would be another reasonable explanation, like language/ cultural translation.. ”
Kathy Arch is full of hot garbage. As you can see from the links I provided the claim of 18 miles away is nonsense. We are talking 30 minutes max and most likely much less than that depending on where the village limits were in that day
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Nan,
“Don’t you get it? Faith does not start with applying objectivity (judgment based on observable phenomena) because, as I’ve been discussing with Mike, God cannot be observed. ”
Nan, faith is something that we build up.. and everything that is built up needs a foundation.. and the foundation for people who have faith in God is the Bible. And there IS most certainly evidence in the Bible that supports belief in it as the Truth. … and we must apply objectivity when processing that evidence. All of you here are having trouble applying objectivity when processing the evidence that supports the TRUTH of the Bible.
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“I know that translation issues are always a possible explanation for seeming “errors”.. that’s what I meant by Arch and Nate and others making assumptions.. they assume everything is literal (because that’s how they read it, in the English language.. so it must be what it means! that narrow thinking of theirs again.. ).”
Yes and in this case, as Ron was (unwittingly ) kind enough to confirm, the Greek there can simply mean to throw headlong which is why some translations render it that way. Therefore even though Mount Precipice was nearby it does not even require that it was the place where that took place.
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““I’ll bet you have Christians emailing you, saying “Hey Mike – don’t help us! We’re beggin’ ya!”
That would be me.”
I got no emails from you Hayden and even if I had I still would not have gotten one from a Christian. With your beliefs the only person who w0ould think you are a Christian is an atheist.
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“I don’t bother looking at Google or doing other extensive research for these kinds of things..” – yeah, I’ve noticed that.
“are you claiming that because the ‘cliff’ is supposedly 18 miles away.. that this is evidence for the Bible not being true?” – no, I’m claiming that that’s evidence for that verse not being true.
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Hey NastyNeuter-er,
I think I watched the wrong film. I watched “How To Convert An Atheist” @
And read this article; http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2012/10/19/the-power-of-music-mind-control-by-rhythmic-sound/
is that the info you were wanting me to take a look at? It was interesting. Good stuff.
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“Ever read the Nazareth Farm Report?”