You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
@Haydenlinder, you need to watch the movie. There will be a test later. 🙂
Wiki says, “Constantine appointed his mother Helena as Augusta Imperatrix, and gave her unlimited access to the imperial treasury in order to locate the relics of Judeo-Christian tradition. “
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In other words, she was the first Minister of Tourism and Bullshit, ably assisted by Eusebius.
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“In other words, she was the first Minister of Tourism and Bullshit, ably assisted by Eusebius.”
And who is to say that was not an important job!?
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“In other words, she was the first Minister of Tourism and Bullshit, ably assisted by Eusebius.”
You are so right, Ark. Many articles I’ve read suggest that Helena showed the “Locals” where all of these sites were . Quite the Archaeologist . 🙂
This is why when visiting these sites most tour guides start their talk with , “Tradition tells us…”
I remember visiting the Ancient City of Ephesus in Turkey in 2011, the Local Guide said, “Tradition tells us Paul preached here” when one of our group asked,” doesn’t archeaology confirm this?” to which the guide responded, “not really, this is your (Christian) story, not ours”
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Oh, it was a very important job. Spin Doctor always is, Hayden.
And when you consider what your religion is worth, just in monetary terms it is staggering, it is perfectly understandable why maintaining the Abrahamic god-lie is so vital.
Religious tourism to the (un) Holy Land and Jerusalem alone is worth billions of dollars.
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Hilarious. A tour guide that really pisses off the fundies.
Imagine Finkelstein, Herzog and Devers starting their own Tour Company?
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“Imagine Finkelstein, Herzog and Devers starting their own Tour Company?”
I for one would welcome this ! That’s what I enjoyed when traveling throughout Egypt. We had an Egyptologist who first shared what archaeology tells us and then any traditions which might have been handed down.
Maybe you could start this Tour Company, Ark ? I would sign up. You could call it “Holy Land Tours without the B.S. ” 🙂 But then again, instead of your typical 7 day tours currently offered, yours might only last a few hours. 🙂
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““are you claiming that because the ‘cliff’ is supposedly 18 miles away.. that this is evidence for the Bible not being true?” – no, I’m claiming that that’s evidence for that verse not being true.”
ROFL……HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Even though all the facts and looking at a map will tell anyone that Mount Precipice is right near the entrance of Nazareth he is STILL pretending like its 18 miles away. Take a bow Arch not only did your fact blow up proving yet again that you guys do do real research you have proven for all time that you are a totally intellectually dishonest group.
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“No, dickhead. Not Salm. The actual report put out by Pfann & Rapuano.” Ark
Hey if you don’t know Salm is a major proponent of your dry rot ideas then thats fine. Meanwhile if you think you are just going to look at recent finds and cry tourism conspiracy and they go away then you are even more of a comedian than I thought.
but considering that your comrade Arch is in denial about where “MT Precipice” is then its “birds of a feather flock……” and all I have to say is keep on trucking
P.S. tell Arch for me his faith is impressive – apparently it can almost move mountains. 😉
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Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1
I haven’t researched this in it’s original language, but I always thought this meant that faith itself was the evidence of things not seen. Not that there was faith in the evidence of things not seen. It’s not claiming there is evidence of things not seen other than faith.
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Come now, Mike, even a dunderhead like you must know that there really was no such place as Nazareth? The term, Nazarene had nothing to do with any place, you know that.
Let’s stop mucking around, okay, and let’s see you produce real, unbiased, peer-reviewed evidence by people who have no religious stake in this.
If you are not prepared to even make the effort to show a little integrity then why do you bother?
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@ Hayden,
Ha! I did let you slide on that one, didn’t I? I did mean to ask you some questions about it, though. If you don’t care what the Bible says, how do you place any faith in Jesus as your Savior? It’s the Bible that tells us about him. And how do you profess to know things about the God of the Bible if you don’t really trust what the Bible says, or care about it?
These aren’t meant to be sarcastic or snarky questions. I just don’t understand it.
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“Come now, Mike, even a dunderhead like you must know that there really was no such place as Nazareth? The term, Nazarene had nothing to do with any place, you know that.”
Chop chop Ark….resorting to rhetoric will not save you neither will begging that recent finds are just tourism conspiracies. Until you come up with something better your whines can be as ignored as Arch’s claims that somebody moved the Mount Precipice when we were not looking.
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“Let’s stop mucking around, okay, and let’s see you produce real, unbiased, peer-reviewed evidence by people who have no religious stake in this.”
Nice try but lets get peer reviewed evidence by “people who have no atheistic anti-religious stake in it”. Your subtle beg to have credentialed experts in the field discounted because they don’t adhere to your own view is exposed and rejected
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a) It isn’t a recent find.
b) The evidence was never peer reviewed.
c) the building was never positively dated to the time of the biblical character Jesus. That was first class rhetoric from the archaeologist on the dig.
If Bagatti found nothing what makes you s sure this ( single) dwelling is proof positive f your Nazareth?
Compare this with the description in Luke – his ”multitude” and synagogue and city and you might as well be talking about two entirely different locations.
Nope, I am asking why the finds have never been verified by any other archaeologist.
This is potentially a find of immense ramifications and all it got was a single, small report that was soon withdrawn.
No official archaeological report has <ever been issued
I mean, wouldn’t you want to know everything about a house in the village …oops, sorry, ”City” Jesus lived in?
I know I would.
However, even Eusebius showed no interest so why would one expect the rest of Christianity?
In fact, you’ll be hard pressed to find anything further about this dig or any other ‘quotes’ about it from Pfann or Rapuano.
It’s only significance is for the tourists and fundies like you, where the guides, backed by the unscrupulous can ply their larcenous trade against the credulous and woefully ignorant.
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“I haven’t researched this in it’s original language” Ruth
Sure Ruth we can have a study of the verse
“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”
the word substance is hupostáseōs
“In general, that which underlies the apparent, hence, reality, essence, substance;
Zodhiates, S. (2000).
Therefore Faith is substantive not something based on nothing
The word evidence is elégchou
Metonymically, meaning certain persuasion (Heb. 11:1). In the sense of refutation of adversaries (2 Tim. 3:16; see Sept.: Job 13:6; 23:4; Hos. 5:9). Implies not merely the charge on the basis of which one is convicted, but the manifestation of the truth of that charge and the results to be reaped
Zodhiates, S. (2000).
As you can see the word has legal connotations referring to the persuasion that comes from a case (not just a charge) and the manifestation (evidence) of the truth of the charge and in septaugint usage denotes a reasoned position or case being made
“Hear now my defence, and hearken to the pleadings of my lips.”
Job 3:16
“I would lay my case before him and fill my mouth with arguments.”
Job 23:4
“Ephraim shall become a desolation in the day of punishment; among the tribes of Israel I make known what is sure.”
HOsea 5:9
So it is an assurance that comes about on the basis of a case being made not just standing by itself with no evidence.
Further if all that were not enough the rest of Hebrews 11 has several examples of faith that were based on previous evidence for that faith
Sarah received faith although she laughed at first but then got evidence that the visitor who told her she would have a child knew her thoughts
Joseph is said to have faith when he was dying to talk of the future but by that time he had the evidence of all God had done before
The children of Israel are said to have faith to cross the red sea but scripturally they had already seen the ten plagues as evidence and the waters parting would have helped too
People may discount the evidence and in the case of miracles in the Bible say they never happened but from a biblical perspective claimjng that faith requires no evidence is just not in the book. The whole point of Jesus being called Christ was that he was to be the fulfillment of prophecies concerning the anointed one (Christos). So the very heart of Christianity is based on the Bible requiring evidence of prophetic fulfillment. Even from your own side’s position you claim that prophecies were made up to make it appear they had come to pass. If no evidence for faith was required then that would not even be a claim you could make since there would be no reason to attempt to provide any kind of prophetic evidence (or that of miracles either).
Its a very popular idea but it has no basis in the Bible.
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Funny how TB wants to use the footprint of a modern Nazareth having 81,000 inhabitants as the basis for calculating the distance to Mt. Precipice. If PPNA Jericho with an estimated population of two to three thousand people only occupied 40,000 square metres (~10 acres or 0.015 square miles) then it’s unlikely a tiny hamlet of less than 300 people would have occupied much more than that even if one granted their dwellings were all lined up single file along one side of the road. And that so-called “entrance” to Nazareth is a tunnel that was built under the mountain during the latter half of 20th century.
One also wonders why people who should have been intimately familiar with the circumstances of Jesus’ life would even get the least bit upset with his remarks at this point. As this site so eloquently puts it:
Yet now they suddenly act as if they’d all lived under a rock for the past 30 years.
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“If Bagatti found nothing what makes you s sure this ( single) dwelling is proof positive f your Nazareth?”
Lets just cut to the chase. Your rhetoric and hand waving means nothing. You have proof positive it isn’t?
meanwhile no peer reviewed evidence? This must be the weekend for the Arch brothers to just totally embarrass themselves
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=8698923&fileId=S0003581512001308
(Try not to go to Salm for rebuttal…or at least tell me first so I don’t laugh myself off my chair)
“However, even Eusebius showed no interest so why would one expect the rest of Christianity?”
Oh wow Eusebius showed no interest in the town that Rejected Christ and where the bible records the unbelief was so high that Jesus could do no miracles? Thats your big point?
Lets face it. Your argument that there was no Nazareth in the first century was always weak and now that finds are surfacing your boat has a leak about three feet in diameter. If not for the present town over the ancient remains impeding digs it probably would have sunk already
Get out and try and help Arch go move that mount to 18 miles miles out from Nazareth
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I wasn’t making the claim that faith doesn’t require any evidence, only that I had understood that particular verse to be claiming that faith itself is evidence. Obviously anyone who believes anything must believe it to be a reasonable position to hold, else they would abandon it.
I think that’s what we have here: Some people accept the claims of the Bible as evidence – even people who have extensively researched the Bible’s claims and even some who have found that some of the things they had once believed about the Bible to be myth or legend.
And others who, after an examination, discount the claims of the Bible as evidence of it’s truth.
I think there are reasonable people on both sides.
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I have a confession,
I have found it hard to tear away from this thread, and have been still silently reading 🙂
on the topic of liberalism I thought this might be useful.
After doing some more exploring, I actually see where Kathy is coming from in regards to the individualism highlighted within particular ideas of liberalism.
It seems to me that there are certain expressions of individualism that do go against biblical teachings, and therefore I can see how Kathy concludes that liberalism as a movement could go against Christian teaching.
However, it seems to me that not all expressions of individualism does this.
And if God has created human beings, then He has also given us the gift of creativity and expression. How we use this creativity and for what purpose is the main concern in this regard.
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The distinction between Liberalism and Libertarianism
http://www.economist.com/blogs/johnson/2010/10/ism_week
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“Funny how TB wants to use the footprint of a modern Nazareth having 81,000 inhabitants as the basis for calculating the distance to Mt. Precipice.”
Sorry That was your pal Ra. I actually just estimated from the latest find and that they would be said to be already outside the city. In reality it could be far closer
“If PPNA Jericho with an estimated population of two to three thousand people only occupied 40,000 square metres (~10 acres or 0.015 square miles) then it’s unlikely a tiny hamlet of less than 300 people would have occupied much more than that ”
and Sparky II its unlikely that you would know how far away it was from Mt Precipice for the same reason. IN reality we don’t know how large or small nazareth with because the existing city hampers archaeological digs. You can Beg you know but that aint been working
“Yet now they suddenly act as if they’d all lived under a rock for the past 30 years.’
was all that handwaving and throwing up things in the hope that something would stick suppose to distract from your boy Arch blundering saying Mount Precipice was 6 hours away walk????
Cause ummmmm…. that didn’t wok either. You might want to TRY and help Ark now. He will probably need some help with all the handwaving he will want to do at the paper he just got a link to.
but again thank you for the previous confirmation that the passage can just simply mean thrown headlong not requiring a cliff even if Mt Precipice is nearby.
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“And others who, after an examination, discount the claims of the Bible as evidence of it’s truth.”
That just might be true somewhere else but as I have PROVEN (your objections not withstanding) this just isn’t the group that has really examined anything. As a group from Nate on down you just have too many blunders in your understanding and research to be taken seriously as claiming that for yourselves.
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I think you guys need some time to regroup.
From William and Arch claiming its no big deal to use Mentally handicapped little girls in your insults to Arch trying to move a mountain miles out from where it is to Ark getting slapped by peer reviewed papers showing evidence of a first century nazareth to even Nan torturing herself trying to figure out that something invisible to the human eye can still have evidence –
Its just apparent you need at least a week probably more to gather, refocus and get your sea legs. I can give you that or more.
See you maybe next weekend. If its evident you still need more time I can extend. Take care and honestly …jave a great week
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Now, Nate, NOW! Close this topic and let’s get on with something new. Please, please please!
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