Agnosticism, Atheism, Bible Study, Christianity, Faith, God, Religion, Truth

Letter to Kathy Part 2

Nate

You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.

If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.

I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.

So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or  belief would be saved.

I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.

I was in a state of flux.

And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.

I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.

That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.

For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…

I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.

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Published by Nate

2,018 thoughts on “Letter to Kathy Part 2”

  1. Mike,

    Thank you for taking the time to clearly explain and outline faith

    in you post dated: July 27, 2014 at 9:43 am

    As well as doing this in a considerate way, I really appreciate that you just plainly expressed what you believe the Bible teaches, and didn’t muddy the water or cause distraction from whats being considered by then laying question on the integrity of those who asked the question, which really has nothing to do with the answer itself.

    Thank you, it is very refreshing (and that’s not sarcasm).

    Thats what I really think is needed to wade through all the accusations, to just consider what the Bible actually says, and the meaning attached to the words themselves.

    The unpacking on this removes confusion and hopefully then gives people less reason to jump back to name calling of bloggers, which has nothing to do with what the Bible actually states and teaches.

    Sincerely, Thanks again for that specific post 🙂

    Ryan

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  2. And to expand on this,

    That’s what I really think is needed to wade through all the accusations,

    To just consider what the Bible actually says, as the teachings stand. Without apologetics, without defence, without additional information. Then people can consider the teachings as they stand, and look into things further if they decide.

    To consider the the original intended meaning attached to the words themselves.

    Words like faith and its meaning, as you unpacked Mike.

    So then these teachings can be considered as they stand.

    And then all the other stuff: the personal disagreements on another’s style, or tone or opinion

    has nothing at all to do with what the Bible, and what it teaches through its words and their original meaning. Considered through the Greek and Hebrew.

    This clearly would remove all misconceptions around these questions and arguments.

    Which would help everyone, for then it would get to the truth of the matter, and cut through the fighting.

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  3. People could then decide whether they receive or accept these teachings or not,

    But then everyone has a clear outline of what the teachings actually are, as they are stated.

    is this not what finding truth is, an accurate communication of the reality, which also includes what is actually stated in the writings of the Bible, within the context and meaning of the original languages?

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  4. Whether a certain person/blogger is delusional, liberal, ignorant or dishonest

    has nothing to do at all

    with whether or not The Bible contextually teaches or states a specific teaching or not.

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  6. @Mike
    Oh, and let’s remember, dickhead, that Nazareth is not derived from Nazarene as supposed by gMatthew.

    I am surprised you didn’t know this?

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  7. Arch,

    ““I don’t bother looking at Google or doing other extensive research for these kinds of things..” – yeah, I’ve noticed that.”

    Gotta weed out the ridiculous, pointless stuff, Arch..

    “are you claiming that because the ‘cliff’ is supposedly 18 miles away.. that this is evidence for the Bible not being true?” – no, I’m claiming that that’s evidence for that verse not being true.”

    SOOOOOOOO…. you’ve identified EVIDENCE… for something being TRUE OR NOT TRUE.. ahem…

    NOW.. let’s try this.. AGAIN…

    WHICH RELIGION DO YOU BELIEVE HAS THE BEST EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT IT’S “TRUTH”??

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  8. Arch cont..

    ““are you claiming that because the ‘cliff’ is supposedly 18 miles away.. that this is evidence for the Bible not being true?” – no, I’m claiming that that’s evidence for that verse not being true.”

    And oooops… another EXCELLENT example of atheist dishonesty… your goal is to disprove the Bible.. this has been crystal clear. Are you trying to fool yourself again Arch? Because it’s not gonna work on anyone else.

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  9. kc said:

    “I remember visiting the Ancient City of Ephesus in Turkey in 2011, the Local Guide said, “Tradition tells us Paul preached here” when one of our group asked,” doesn’t archeaology confirm this?” to which the guide responded, “not really, this is your (Christian) story, not ours” ”

    Exactly WHAT archaeological evidence is expected from Paul preaching in an area 2000 years ago??

    Ridiculous.

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  10. I told myself I was done commenting until Nate put up a new blog, but I saw this and just couldn’t resist:

    If God made us in his image, then why aren’t we invisible too?

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  12. “as I’ve been discussing with Mike, God cannot be observed.”

    “The invisible and the non-existent look pretty much alike.”
    ~~ Delos B. McGowan ~~

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  14. @Kathy

    WHICH RELIGION DO YOU BELIEVE HAS THE BEST EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT IT’S “TRUTH”??

    Why do you insist putting the word truth in speech marks?

    If you continually claim that Christianity professes truth then please offer some verifiable evidence. I continue to ask this but you have not once had the good manners to offer a single piece of evidence let alone respond to the request.

    How can you expect anyone to try to validate and/or evaluate this evidence when you do not present any?
    You would not tolerate such action from any other field of endeavour.
    Even the biblical character, Jesus of Nazareth makes a statement about evidence, does he not?
    So please, Kathy, let us see/examine the evidence you profess exists.

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  18. “Exactly WHAT archaeological evidence is expected from Paul preaching in an area 2000 years ago??

    Ridiculous.”

    As it happens, the quest for the historical Paul began almost simultaneously, inaugurated by the German scholar Ferdinand Christian Baur.[ii] Baur put his finger squarely on the problem: There are four different “Pauls” in the New Testament, not one, and each is quite distinct from the others. New Testament scholars today are generally agreed on this point.[iii]

    (From http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/people-in-the-bible/the-quest-for-the-historical-paul/)

    You’re right Kathy. It is pretty ridiculous !

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  19. Here’s another video of kids being taught the best “credentials” and “evidence” Christianity has to offer. Towards the end, you’ll notice a number of arrogant, prideful, godless liberals in the crowd who simply refuse to acknowledge the obvious “TRUTH” of Christianity. See if you can spot them. /sarc

    (Hat tip to Friendly Atheist)

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  20. kc,

    “New Testament scholars today are generally agreed on this point.[iii]”

    The article references a total of 3 scholars on that point… how is that a “general” agreement? (it isn’t).

    The article also references Bart Ehrman. It’s an opinion piece by a non Christian which references the opinions of other non Christians, which makes the article useless to anyone seeking objectivity.

    And you failed to answer my question.. what archaeological evidence “should” we have to prove Paul was preaching in a specific area??

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  21. Ark said,

    “@Kathy

    WHICH RELIGION DO YOU BELIEVE HAS THE BEST EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT IT’S “TRUTH”??

    Why do you insist putting the word truth in speech marks?”

    I use quotation marks because not all are true.. only one is. And there’s no reason for me to believe that now.. after all this time and effort and denial and resistance by Arch and Nate and others, that Christianity will be the one they name.. which, it’s of course, more wise to do what they are doing.. naming none. You all have no other option.. because being honest isn’t even on the table for the liberal if it means you have to acknowledge Christianity as the most reasonable answer.. and being wrong isn’t an option either, that’s would hurt the pride and ego too much. See?.. look what you all do to yourselves.. some day you’ll figure out that it’s just so much easier to be honesty and accept the truth.. because it’s the truth that WILL win in the end.. and there’s nothing that any of you can do to change that reality.

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  22. @Kathy
    And all this waffle and you STILL did not present a single scrap of evidence for your claims.

    So, once again .
    Please will you present, or offer a link, to the verifiable evidence you continually claim supports your religion?

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  23. “And you failed to answer my question.. what archaeological evidence “should” we have to prove Paul was preaching in a specific area??”

    Since Paul is credited by many as starting the religion of Christianity, I would think there would be statues, inscriptions , or something. Instead, all you can say is , “Tradition tells us”

    That’s all you have.

    It’s obvious you are willing to discredit ALL evidence outside of the Bible itself. Not very objective.

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  24. @Ron,”Here’s another video of kids being taught the best “credentials” and “evidence” Christianity has to offer. ”

    I attended an Assembly of God kids camp several times during my youth that resembles this to a “T”

    There was tremendous pressure placed on me by my camp counselors to speak in tongues. They told me to start making noises and it would come. It never did. I felt like I failed God. It was very traumatic at the time.

    This is truly cruel and inhumane punishment to kids.

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  25. Kathy,”The article also references Bart Ehrman. It’s an opinion piece by a non Christian which references the opinions of other non Christians, which makes the article useless to anyone seeking objectivity.”

    Bart Ehrman is STILL a scholar of the bible and yet because he became a non-believer , his scholarly knowledge no longer counts in your opinion. I suppose you discount ALL Jewish scholars and archaeologists because they are Jewish ?

    Objectivity ? You wouldn’t know it if it was handed to you in book form unless it had a cross on the front of it.

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