You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
“The Scholarly method or scholarship is the body of principles and practices used by scholars to make their claims about the world as valid and trustworthy as possible, and to make them known to the scholarly public. It is the methods that systemically advance the teaching, research, and practice of a given scholarly or academic field of study through rigorous inquiry. Scholarship is noted by its significance to its particular profession, is creative, can be documented, can be replicated or elaborated, and can be and is peer-reviewed through various methods” (wiki)
Kathy, no where does it say you have to believe in Christianity to be a Scholar. Only an indoctrinated person would accept the works of Christian Believing Scholars only.
Pretty Silly !
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“The article references a total of 3 scholars on that point… how is that a “general” agreement? (it isn’t).”
Kathy, you obviously can’t comprehend what you read. To reference 3 scholars does NOT mean they were the only ones who agreed with his article.
The Bible references a few people who were supposedly healed by Jesus. Do you believe he healed more than the ones mentioned ? Silly Silly Silly
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“Kathy, no where does it say you have to believe in Christianity to be a Scholar. Only an indoctrinated person would accept the works of Christian Believing Scholars only.
Pretty Silly ”
Quick drop in to see how your regroup was going after you guys recent series of blunders…..Not goood. Looks like you will need a month (still will be a feat to move MT Precipice so hey however long it takes).
What with KK embarassing himself above. Which side has steadily maintained and demanded that only skeptical/atheists scholars should be counted rather than just going on their credentials? Talk about silliness. Ark is seen above as I scanned claiming all scholars agree that several “Pauls” wrote his epistles. too stupid. I have ton loads of commentaries from Bible scholars who don’t agree. SO guess what? – only accepting the work of bible rejecting scholars to make his barf.
If hypocrisy were a light you would all burn out your retinas in a second and go blind just from looking in the mirror.
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“To reference 3 scholars does NOT mean they were the only ones who agreed with his article. The Bible references a few people who were supposedly healed by Jesus. Do you believe he healed more than the ones mentioned ? Silly Silly Silly”
What???? But ,,,but,,,, but…… I thought if the Bible didn’t mention all details it was grounds for a….a….a….. contradiction. As Ruth would say – You are reading your own ideas into the text If you suppose all the details of everything that happened are not in a book.
lol
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Blunders, Dickhead? lol…and the Ken Dark peer review?
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As Ruth would say – You are reading your own ideas into the text If you suppose all the details of everything that happened are not in a book.
You may go back and read my comments but there is nowhere that I argue for a contradiction. Secondly, what I said was that when details are not provided different people fill in the details in different ways. I suppose, then, that it could be argued that you are reading your own ideas into the text, but everyone does this with their own filters and their own biases. I was merely pointing out that you have your own. I don’t think I’m wrong about that.
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“What with KK embarassing himself above. Which side has steadily maintained and demanded that only skeptical/atheists scholars should be counted rather than just going on their credentials?”
When I have accused you of making certain statements, I copy and paste them .
Waiting for you to copy and paste mine. Yawning ……………………….
I also would like to see where anyone here ” has steadily maintained and demanded that only skeptical/atheists scholars should be counted rather than just going on their credentials”
Copy and paste away , Mikey !
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Sorry Ladies and Germs, my email’s been down since mid-afternoon yesterday and I’ve been able to receive, much less respond to, any comments, but I can see that not much has changed – the leak in the gasbag still hasn’t been repaired —
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“First, you need to identify the “peaceful” martyrs of other religions that you are referring to. The martyrs I refer to are Jesus’ disciples (to start with). Then we can compare them.” = kathy
kathy,
First of all, I’m not sure how you can place a peaceful requirement on martyrdom, when being a martyr is giving one’s life for a cause. Additionally, while the NT pushes for peace, the same god in the OT often pushed for violence – even the slaughter of women and children.
Can you explain why you think such a qualifier is justified given the OT, as well as why “peace” or “violence” has any bearing on divine truth?
Even so, there are other’s who were martyred for their spiritual beliefs and practices without their own violent acts:
– many of the witches who were burned by christians long ago.
– Tibetan monks.
– Native Americans who wouldn’t convert to Catholicism
– sikhs (we have a recent example of this in the USA)
– Muslims (the ones who were actually peaceful)
a little more info on islam and few examples of some of their martyrs who didn’t blow themselves up:
MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT ISLAMIC MARTYRDOM
One of the greatest misconceptions about Islamic martyrdom is that martyrs are automatically granted 72 virgins in paradise. Surah 55, verse 73 of the Qur’an includes a promise of ‘hoorun’ in paradise, which is sometimes translated as ‘virgins,’ but this is a promise for all believers, not just for martyrs. It is also often forgotten that suicide is forbidden in Islam. Surah 4, verse 29 of the Qur’an states, “And do not kill yourselves [or one another].”
FAMOUS MUSLIM MARTYRS
The first martyr of Islam was a woman named Sumayyah bint Khayyat, who was murdered for her beliefs in Mecca in the early days of Islam. Hamza, a noted warrior of the early community and the uncle of Muhammad, was slain in 625. … The final three of Islam’s Rightly-guided Caliphs, successors to Muhammad, were martyred. Umar, Uthman and Ali were all murdered while serving as caliph. The term caliph means successor, and the first four caliphs were considered successors to the political authority of Muhammad.
But even with this non-exhaustive list of non-christian religious martyrs, what evidence do you have that shows christian martyrdom is evidence of god or anything beyond just the individual’s devotion to what they only THINK to be true?
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@mike,
I havent caught up on everything since friday, but i saw this and wanted to make a point:
“What???? But ,,,but,,,, but…… I thought if the Bible didn’t mention all details it was grounds for a….a….a….. contradiction. As Ruth would say – You are reading your own ideas into the text If you suppose all the details of everything that happened are not in a book.”
Why would you think that? That’s not what’s been said. Missing details is missing details, but what you and kathy are doing is taking conflicting things from bible books and trying to say that there maybe missing details that would resolve the contradiction. I think this is an important distinction.
For one example, nate has written about the narratives surrounding jesus’ birth from the 4 gospels. When reading them alone, matthew doesn’t agree with the others in several details, and it goes beyond simple “missing details.”
In one a trip to egypt is recorded and in the others no trip is mentioned, but instead, make it sound like (within their own books) that Joseph, mary and baby jesus didnt have time to go to egypt, because the went here or there… nothing within those texts to indicate an extended period of time (2 years was it?) for a trip to egypt.
and then there’s the events at the tomb – where were the angels and what did they say, etc? The books conflict, but you must add supposed details to create a way for them “reconcile.” And maybe you’re right in your assumed story line, it’s just that there’s nothing the bible to suggest you’re right.
again, what contradiction cannot be resolved the way you try to resolve the issues with the gospels – unless every detail is given?
trying to suggest that it’s merely a case of missing details is cutting the issue short and ignoring the legitimate parts of internal conflict that is painfully obvious when comparing the accounts side by side.
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“Blunders, Dickhead? lol…and the Ken Dark peer review?”
LOl…what about it? I said it was in regard to first century nazareth. Missed your reading glasses where it says just that?
Blunder 4
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“I use quotation marks because not all are true.. only one is. And there’s no reason for me to believe that now.. after all this time and effort and denial and resistance by Arch and Nate and others, that Christianity will be the one they name.. which, it’s of course, more wise to do what they are doing.. naming none. You all have no other option.. because being honest isn’t even on the table for the liberal if it means you have to acknowledge Christianity as the most reasonable answer.. and being wrong isn’t an option either, that’s would hurt the pride and ego too much. See?.. look what you all do to yourselves.. some day you’ll figure out that it’s just so much easier to be honesty and accept the truth.. because it’s the truth that WILL win in the end.. and there’s nothing that any of you can do to change that reality.” – kathy
Kathy, why do any of them have to be true?
and how do you know that christianity is the only true one?
It looks like you’re starting off with an assumed position, and them simply declaring that christianity is “true.” If i wrong, could you walks us down you logic for determining that christianity is the one true religion and why there must be one true religion?
I really just dont see it. This is why we’ve been asking for your evidence – to help us understand where you’re coming from and so that we might weigh this evidence for ourselves.
,
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“I also would like to see where anyone here ” has steadily maintained and demanded that only skeptical/atheists scholars should be counted”
Sure Sparky III. I don’t even have to go far for the last time this oft repeated bias has been expressed. This was arch just this weekend
“let’s see you produce real, unbiased, peer-reviewed evidence by people who have no religious stake in this.”
Lets see what was his qualifier? no religious stake? now who could not be accused of having a religious stake (from your perspective)? hmmmm ….Oh wait Why an atheist or someone skeptical of the Bible. Just like I said
SO many blunders.You really do need the week to regroup. Actually more. Enjoy the summer.
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Blunder 4 – yes, yours, dickhead
You referenced Rapuano’s dig and the building.
Dark was not talking about this and it was THIS that I asked why there were no independent peer reviews, and why no official report had ever been issued.
Please, get with the program.
So, have you anything else?
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“Kathy what Arch meant to say there was that they have no workable theory how life came about. So its actually worse than you thought. They have no answers there (but they will tell you with great childlike faith that the answers will all in the future be materialistic in nature).” – mike
even if it were as black and white as you make out, what difference does that make?
Having one unprovable answer doesnt mean it’s the correct one – no matter how many times you say that it is.
“God made it” isnt a claim unique to christianity or to the bible. The bible’s “god did it” story isn’t even the oldest.
I may not know what the cause was or what the beginning even looked like, but i know several of the things it wasnt.
It’s like wondering what the farthest star in the universe is, and someone writing in a book a claim that the farthest star is a red giant named Jim. and that jim is inhabited by ginat fire squid people. Some people may believe that claim. If all of china believed it and we asked them for proof of this star, and Jim’s squid people, would it be wise to think an answer of, “well, if you cant name or identify the farthest star, then that proves we’re right,” satisfies the issue?
so your problematic book of claims written and compiled by men claims, un-uniquely, that their god made the heavens and the earth, and that settles it because science and reasonable people arent willing to make up and answer, but have decided to wait until the facts can be known?
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“Dark was not talking about this and it was THIS that I asked why there were no independent peer reviews, and why no official report had ever been issued.
Please, get with the program.”
LOL you nit. The issue is and was first century peer reviewed evidence of Nazareth in the first century. Thats what i linked to. Of course Dark was referring to another find. Says so right in the link if you had your reading glasses on since it was an up[date from an older find. That actually made your case WORSE because its yet another evidence for a first century nazareth
Blunder five
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Its apparent even now that a week is not good enough. take a few weeks guys. maybe just maybe you will get a little better doing research.
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I’m closing this thread due to the ungainly size. Please continue the conversation here:
https://findingtruth.wordpress.com/2014/07/28/kathy-part-3/
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