So I’ve decided to bring the “Kathy” series to an end. However, we’ve had some fun in those threads when the conversation has gone off into interesting tangents, so I’d like to keep that part of it going for anyone who’s interested. These new threads will no longer focus on Kathy or the things we were discussing with her. So thanks for your time, Kathy! Take care.
There are no real rules for these threads. But to kick off the conversation, I’ll go back to the discussion on Paul that a few of us were having. Laurie views Deut 13 as a prophecy about Paul, so why don’t we take a quick look at it?
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. 9 But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11 And all Israel shall hear and fear and never again do any such wickedness as this among you.
12 “If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, 13 that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, 14 then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, 15 you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. 16 You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. It shall be a heap forever. It shall not be built again. 17 None of the devoted things shall stick to your hand, that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger and show you mercy and have compassion on you and multiply you, as he swore to your fathers, 18 if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, and doing what is right in the sight of the Lord your God.
I can see how one could apply this to Paul. However, I can also see how Jews could have applied it to Jesus as well, especially if he was claiming divinity for himself. And I’m sure this could have applied to lots of people during Israel’s history. Why should we think it’s pointing to Paul specifically, and why wouldn’t it also apply to Jesus?
Finding Truth 
Nate, I used the link at top of the page that links to a random post you’ve done. I ended up on this post about baptism. It was very interesting. This is from back when you were still a Christian and had a very interesting debate about whether or not baptism was a requirement for salvation.
This is another perfect example of the inconsistent message the Bible gives on what should be a very important topic: how to become saved! Now that I think of it, it seems many Christians I’ve spoken with have admitted to doubts about whether they were really saved or not. Sometimes a preacher would pound home a message about being sincere, or reallllly believing, or having faith that produces results or something along these lines and it leaves everyone scratching their heads wondering if they were truly saved or not. It’s very sad that so many people have this burden of possibly being lost to hell.
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Now that I think of it, it seems many Christians I’ve spoken with have admitted to doubts about whether they were really saved or not. Sometimes a preacher would pound home a message about being sincere, or reallllly believing, or having faith that produces results or something along these lines and it leaves everyone scratching their heads wondering if they were truly saved or not.
I was so worried about it I went for a swim twice in the church pool. Once when I was a kid and once as an adult because I was afraid I didn’t understand enough to be saved when I was a kid.
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“This is another perfect example of the inconsistent message the Bible gives on what should be a very important topic: how to become saved!”
Dave, in my search for “truth” through the years, I joined and became active in several mainstream denominations. Each one claiming to have “the” truth. In my pursuit, I only became more disillusioned. As I’m sure you are aware, there are over 41,000 Christian sects.
I finally stopped going to church, and studied the bible to try and make sense of the madness. It wasn’t long before I realized that it was just that…madness.
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This resonates with me a tremendous amount Dave. I’ve mentioned this several times on Nate’s blog. I especially mentioned it to Kathy as well as He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named (not sure if you know him Dave) during the Kathy series, because they both mentioned several times that none of us were ever really saved. The way they talked it was very clear that there is absolutely no way anyone can have assurance of salvation, because you’ll never know whether or not someday you may change your mind after being convinced differently, which is why it’s not worth spending time being concerned with it.
And yes, as I mentioned previously on this post the James passages about “faith without works” bring up some very tough difficulties regarding knowledge about salvation.
And you are exactly right that there is considerable debate about the requirements of salvation given all the different interpretations that can come from the relevant passages in the bible.
The whole idea is a terrible mentally abusive fear tactic. It’s of course a great selling point for religions like Christianity and Islam. No surprise they grew to have so many followers.
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The whole idea is a terrible mentally abusive fear tactic.
R’amen. I think you and I agreed during that series quite a bit about the precarious nature of salvation. You have the once-saved-always-saved-if-saved crowd and if-you’re-saved-you’ll-wake-up-in-heaven-if-you’re-not-sorry-for-your-luck-club. That first group is split into so many groups and many of them differ on what it actually takes or means to be saved. How do you know which one is the right one? Even if you didn’t change your mind about believing in God, what if you don’t believe in the right version of said God? You could never be sure you were getting it right.
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Precisely Ruth. Pascal’s wager is a total crock. Very likely none of it is real, but if it is then we’re pretty much all screwed – even the ones who may end up getting into some heaven, because a god who would set up a system like that and allow his own imperfect created beings into an eternity of sadness probably isn’t the safest person to be hanging around with.
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This is like a forum instead of a blog . . . in the best of ways.
A church nearby has a sign up for this weekend.
Unbelief Destroys
Faith Builds
I wonder how Laurie looks at those of us with unbelief. Does our unbelief = wickedness? Does she see us as destroyers?
I know, Shabbat.
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Unbelief in what? The bible? Jesus? God? The FSM? Allah? Buddha? Mormonism? JW’s?
The same question goes for Faith … in what? That the grass will grow? That it will rain tomorrow? That my husband will remain faithful?
Of course, I’m being facetious, but the sign makes about as much sense as the bible. And it’s on a church signboard, no less.
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@Dave —
I’m glad you got something useful from that old post. That’s one of the reasons I’ve left those in place. The conversations were enjoyable to me back then, and they serve as a good reminder of how I used to think. I like to think that they’re occasionally helpful to people.
Of course, you’re absolutely right that it’s just another example of how ambiguous the Bible is. You can truly make it say just about anything.
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Guys, as we head into the weekend, I just want to throw out a quick “thanks” to all of you — even the believers who are commenting here.
When I left Christianity (about 4 years ago, now), I was leaving a community of friends and family. It was hard, and it definitely left a void. You guys have filled that space. And while we don’t get together physically, I definitely feel a real sense of “community” with all of you, and it means a great deal to me. Even when I was a Christian, I couldn’t speak as deeply about these kinds of topics with most people in my congregation, because it didn’t interest them in the same way that it did me.
So what I’m saying is, it’s nice to have a tribe. Thank you. 🙂
/mushiness_off
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I still say we need to have a convention of the group that Howie suggested!
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“Faith is often the boast of the man who is too lazy to investigate.”
~~ F.M. Knowles ~~
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@Nate —
Even the theists – at least the ones who are left – are pleasant and interested in friendly, open discussion.
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Yep. It’s quite nice. 🙂
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Nate, that comment of yours about community was awesome! You’ve got a cool “tribe” here filled with people of several different views which is really cool as far as I’m concerned, and I’m glad that you’ve allowed me to be a part of it.
And I think things have gone back to a better social dynamic now that those who were not interested in dialogue are gone.
When I started blogging I had absolutely no idea that I’d make friends online like I have. It’s a pretty cool surprise.
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@Brandon,
Thank you very much, I actually do consider myself quite brilliant. (don’t take that seriously – it’s only written to attempt to make Arch laugh which I’ve only done once in my life and it wasn’t even intentional).
Yeah, I obviously don’t hold the view I was expressing to you as you can see from my comments earlier today. What I wanted to do though was to try and help explain Laurie’s view a little more because I thought some (not all) of your responses to her didn’t actually apply. For example, while I can’t say I totally understand all her views, it does look like her view of grace was as I had suspected – she worded it today pretty much like the book of James did.
You may have just written this without too much thought, because I think you would agree that there is much disagreement among people both within and without Christianity on many points of ethics and morality. And even the Jerusalem council had 4 things that weren’t really what most people categorize as ethics.
You may be lumping Laurie in with some particular “anti-Paul sect” that she is not a member of. Her views seem a bit diverse and perhaps even shaped from different sources (although I’m not really sure). You may want to try to listen to what she says rather than assume based on what you’ve read about a certain sect’s views that you have read about. I’ve actually tried the same with you because your views look very diverse as well.
Unity has always been something that has been very important to me. Most Christian worldviews do not help in unifying humanity as a whole. I think the best denomination that has worked toward unity of all humans has been Unitarian Universalism. They recognize that we’re all going to have very diverse metaphysical or “ultimate” views of the world, and that rather than focussing on making sure others hold the same doctrinal views, the important thing is that we all work together to make the world a better place which is what the vast majority of us all want. People of all worldviews are welcomed and valued in their congregations, and there is no attempt to change doctrinal viewpoints.
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Hey guys, its articles like this that make me glad I don’t live in the Islamic Republic of Iran….
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/iranian-blogger-found-guilty-of-insulting-prophet-mohammad-on-facebook-sentenced-to-death-9741572.html
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4 Nan,
Of course, I’m being facetious, but the sign makes about as much sense as the bible.
It’s at a church at one of the entrances of our community. Can’t miss is. What’s interesting to me about this is, it also doesn’t make sense on a Calvinist Church sign. Isn’t unbelief in their “God’s” hands?
4 Arch,
Good quote.
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“It is also a testament to mankind’s creativity and imagination.” – so is Disneyland
If Walt Disney had made a movie where almost all of the characters and animals died an awful death and then built a theme park to celebrate this movie…. it would be just like AIG’s ark encounter.
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@Nate,
Thank you for hosting this little “community”. That is definitely the thing that I miss the most from my days as a Christian. I’ve been on the hunt for a tribe ever since and haven’t quite been able to find one. It’s nice to be able to talk about these things with people who, even the theists [that are left], aren’t hostile to varying opinions.
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Nate, I’d like to thank you as well for hosting this community. I think the “Open Conversation” post is a fantastic idea. Several, if not the majority here are from the South, US. It’s difficult finding community of link-minded in the bible belt because exposure could cost unbelievers their jobs, possibly their marriage, and other repercussions. I suspect there are a lot more people in my area who are questioning, or who are agnostics and atheists but are not making that known. When they are online sharing their doubts — questioning or admitting they are nonbelievers, they generally do so anonymously. As Ruth mentioned, community is something I miss the most from my days as a Christian.
Christians are taught:
“Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?
➡ Therefore, come out from their midst and be separate,’ says the Lord. ‘And do not touch what is unclean; And I will welcome you.” (2 Corinthians 6:14,17).
So it doesn’t take a neuroscientist to figure out that if believers hang out with unbelievers, they fear they will tick off their god. I personally believe that had Paul’s Letters not been included in the bible, the world would be a better place.
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LOL — I meant to write “like-minded”.
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Here’s my confession as to why I’m hanging out here – I just like being around smart people! . . . and I’m hoping it’s gonna rub off! 🙂
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Funny you! I’ve gotten to know you better over the last two months, via email, and I find you quite intelligent, witty, compassionate, generous, not to mention, wise.
*raises coffee cup*
Cheers my friend.
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Islam is a religion of death.
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