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Open Conversation Part 1

Nate

So I’ve decided to bring the “Kathy” series to an end. However, we’ve had some fun in those threads when the conversation has gone off into interesting tangents, so I’d like to keep that part of it going for anyone who’s interested. These new threads will no longer focus on Kathy or the things we were discussing with her. So thanks for your time, Kathy! Take care.

There are no real rules for these threads. But to kick off the conversation, I’ll go back to the discussion on Paul that a few of us were having. Laurie views Deut 13 as a prophecy about Paul, so why don’t we take a quick look at it?

“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. 9 But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11 And all Israel shall hear and fear and never again do any such wickedness as this among you.

12 “If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, 13 that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, 14 then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, 15 you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. 16 You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. It shall be a heap forever. It shall not be built again. 17 None of the devoted things shall stick to your hand, that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger and show you mercy and have compassion on you and multiply you, as he swore to your fathers, 18 if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, and doing what is right in the sight of the Lord your God.

I can see how one could apply this to Paul. However, I can also see how Jews could have applied it to Jesus as well, especially if he was claiming divinity for himself. And I’m sure this could have applied to lots of people during Israel’s history. Why should we think it’s pointing to Paul specifically, and why wouldn’t it also apply to Jesus?

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Published by Nate

1,090 thoughts on “Open Conversation Part 1”

  1. Here are a couple more, Zoe:

    From the Beryl Baptist Church (State unknown): “Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has.”

    And from the Victory Tabernacle Holiness Church (again, State unknown): “If ur faith is big enough facts dnt count.” (sic)

    Sorry, your neighborhood church has no monopoly on stupid – “Stupid is, as stupid does.” – Forrest Gump –

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  3. You realize, I trust, Dave, that the Bible’s flood story was plagiarized from an actual Mesopotamian flood, in 2900 BCE, that flooded an area equivalent to three counties, to a depth of 15 cubits (22.5 ft.), when the Euphrates River overflowed its banks. Actual, historical King Ziusudra, of Shurrapak, escaped on a trading barge loaded with cotton, cattle and beer, and a legend was born. A hundred years later, the author of The Epic of Gilgamesh incorporated the story into his literary work, changing the name to King Utinapishtim, and 200 years after that, the Bible’s flood “happened”.

    Spoiler Alert: according to the National Geological Survey, there isn’t enough water on, above or under the earth to cover the globe to a depth of 22.5 feet higher than Mt. Everest, despite, “all of the mountains were covered.” Further, of all of the water there is, 90% is already at sea level.

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  8. You know I like laughs – I think that’s a primary reason why I’ve never been sick a day in my life!

    “God enters by a private door into every individual” – that explains why he wants us on our face, with our ass in the air.

    “‘Behold I come quickly’ – Jesus” – I suppose that’s SOME comfort, unless you’re INto that sort of thing!

    “If man came from apes why are there still apes?” – that old Ray Comfort saw! For the same reason that dogs came from wolves, yet there are still wolves.

    “Jesus said ‘Bring me that ass’” – I can tell you that as a pick-up line in a singles bar, that doesn’t always work —

    “A loose tongue gets into tight places.” – I ain’t touchin’ that!

    If god were out there anywhere, he’d fix the Dallas Cowboys!

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  10. “You know I like laughs – I think that’s a primary reason why I’ve never been sick a day in my life!”
    (Prepare for umpteen links as to what neurotransmitters are responsible for that!)

    Go, Neuro —

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  20. About Paul. You know how we don’t all take the Bible literally anymore . . . the unbelieving we, is it possible that even if there was a Saul/Paul that there is not way to verify if any of his “writings” were indeed his writings?

    For example : Where is it, Corinthians? where it says a woman should not teach . . . is it possible to consider that maybe just maybe Paul did not say that, maybe even said, ‘What? A woman should not teach?’ . . . with the intent that he is questioning others who say they should not teach.

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  23. Nope, I was laughing at your comment to Arch. I saw the grammar but if I commented on that I’d throw myself into the lion’s den. I’d get it two-fold in return. 😀

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  25. @Laurie, Nate, and Howie
    On the Matthew 5:18 passage, I agree that it is more difficult for my position. I do think Jesus was a supporter and practitioner of the law. The key question for Christians to ask is, what does the cross and resurrection means for the law? How does it augment things? Paul thinks that the cross and resurrection make the law unnecessary which is most clearly stated in Ephesians 2. And, the author of Hebrews (which most modern scholars do not think was Paul) also thinks that the cross and the resurrection make the law unnecessary and this is interpreted from the New Covenant prophecy (Hebrews 8). The author of Mark even thought that Jesus had declared all foods kosher. So, there are a variety of witnesses who see Jesus’ authority and work on earth as bringing some sort of New Covenant with God that does not include practicing Torah. Even though these authors had this interpretation, we have to ask what did Jesus himself think? It’s a difficult passage for my position, so I’ll definitely be looking into it more.

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