So I’ve decided to bring the “Kathy” series to an end. However, we’ve had some fun in those threads when the conversation has gone off into interesting tangents, so I’d like to keep that part of it going for anyone who’s interested. These new threads will no longer focus on Kathy or the things we were discussing with her. So thanks for your time, Kathy! Take care.
There are no real rules for these threads. But to kick off the conversation, I’ll go back to the discussion on Paul that a few of us were having. Laurie views Deut 13 as a prophecy about Paul, so why don’t we take a quick look at it?
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. 9 But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11 And all Israel shall hear and fear and never again do any such wickedness as this among you.
12 “If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, 13 that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, 14 then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, 15 you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. 16 You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. It shall be a heap forever. It shall not be built again. 17 None of the devoted things shall stick to your hand, that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger and show you mercy and have compassion on you and multiply you, as he swore to your fathers, 18 if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, and doing what is right in the sight of the Lord your God.
I can see how one could apply this to Paul. However, I can also see how Jews could have applied it to Jesus as well, especially if he was claiming divinity for himself. And I’m sure this could have applied to lots of people during Israel’s history. Why should we think it’s pointing to Paul specifically, and why wouldn’t it also apply to Jesus?
Finding Truth 
Oh? Then I suppose you believe in unicorns, since the most reasonable explanation for stories about them is that they really exist.
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“what is the evidence or compelling argument that we are most likely NOT created beings with a Creator?” – it’s simple, there’s no such thing as magic. If you believe there is, your evidence, please —
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“For one — no creator (intelligent engineer) would put an entertainment complex in the middle of a sewage system. 😉” – Touché, but WAY over her head.
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Speaking of Neil Tyson, Kathy, to date, exactly how many websites, and Twitter and Facebook accounts have you and your rants been banned from? Or have you lost count?
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Personally, life strikes me as so vast, so mysterious, and at times paradoxical. I am open to God because we are dependent on so many things.
We only can think because our blood flows, our blood flows because our heart beats. Our bodies movement shares electricity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioelectromagnetics
We only continue to see because we blink, although all these things we depend on we aren’t always concious of. I believe God is the animator of those things that we are dependent on. I believe God is there, whether or not we acknowledge the factors we are dependent on.
No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
1 John 4:12
I’m so fortunate to be a part of this brilliant conversation called life 🙂
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“…existence is compelling evidence of a Creator. This is what’s known as logic and reason. 🙂”
Existence of a Creator is compelling evidence of a Creator of the Creator. This is what’s known as logic and reason. 🙂
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Have a good night everyone, or wherever you are at… it’s lunchtime where I am 🙂
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Ryan, if you’ll forgive me for asking, how old are you?
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“We only can think because our blood flows, our blood flows because our heart beats. Our bodies movement shares electricity. ”
That happens, Portal, simply because creatures within which those things DON’T happen, don’t live to pass on their genes.
For example, there was a time on the very early earth in which the entire atmosphere contained very little oxygen – oxygen-breathers such as you and I would have been out of luck. Then, over a billion years, those creatures that breathed gases other than oxygen lived their normal lifespans, passed on their genes, and died, then decomposed, the decomposition process released minute amounts of oxygen, as you can imagine from a single-celled creature. But over time, those minute amounts built up to the point where some oxygen-breathers evolved, then the shoe was on the other pseudopod – those who breathed gasses other than oxygen gradually died off, and oxygen-breathers took over their niche.
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No worries Nan,
I’m 25, turning 26 this year
Although in some past threads, I have acted a lot less mature than my age, but hey we live and learn 😛
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R, I guessed as much — the steady stream of videos gave you away. 🙂
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Arch,
The point I was trying to make was that we are finite creatures, and even though we have some ability to control what we do, we only have these options because of what has been given to us.
We did not earn the ability to be born to see, to think, to breathe. In one sense, we are more dependent on our sometimes unconscious provisions that we might like to admit.
Nan,
may I ask why you asked? 🙂
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Nan,
All good, I can stop with the videos if you like.
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That’s Nate’s call to make, not mine. I’m just not a big fan of videos.
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Fair enough
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Portal – meet puddle:
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Nan, remember that oldies-but-goodies song, “Every party needs a pooper, that’s why we invited you –“?
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Hi Puddle.
I’m a fan of Douglas Adams, clever guy.
Like evolution is more than deriving from pond scum,
There is more involved in our existence, that is not illustrated in the hypothetical of a self aware puddle and its musings.
But anyway, the puddle was dependent on the processes around it… it could not move unless it was given the capacity to go in a number of directions. whether or not it disappears, and its self reflection does not prove that it was not placed there by a hand that the puddle cannot see, since puddles have no eyes 🙂
“The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don’t.”
Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy
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Arch,
Puddle and I have since become friends on Facebook.
He has 3 brothers, all younger,
his youngest, Colin is merely a drop in the ocean
The second oldest to Colin – Jon Jon. Jon Jon is all washed up, his whole outfit went into liquidation.
And last but not least there is Tony, a hard hitting, fast running, but rushes to conclusions. He’s currently unemployed,
His father is the Paraná, he works in plumbing
And his mother was the Murray–Darling….. nice lady….
they all have lineage that stretches all they way back to the Rio Grande.
“Space is big. You just won’t believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it’s a long way down the road to the chemist’s, but that’s just peanuts to space.”
― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy
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““absence” of evidence is not very compelling evidence.
Oh? Then I suppose you believe in unicorns, since the most reasonable explanation for stories about them is that they really exist.”
The difference is that there is no compelling evidence FOR unicorns.
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““what is the evidence or compelling argument that we are most likely NOT created beings with a Creator?” – it’s simple, there’s no such thing as magic. If you believe there is, your evidence, please –”
Our existence is evidence of God. You can call it magic if you want to, but we don’t have a credentialed book for the existence of “magic”.
To echo your reasoning.. just because we haven’t discovered the “scientific” explanation, that doesn’t mean a scientific explanation doesn’t exist.
Just as you all point out.. what was once thought of as God being angry (thunder) now has a scientific explanation.
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“The art of flying consists primarily of throwing yourself at the ground, and missing.”
~~ Ditto, Ibid ~~
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“The difference is that there is no compelling evidence FOR unicorns.”
WOW. After 5 separate threads, we are back to this again. K, there are compelling evidence for god and jesus and holy spirit. Because other people + you say so.
Ok!
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““For one — no creator (intelligent engineer) would put an entertainment complex in the middle of a sewage system. ;)” – Touché, but WAY over her head.”
It was never meant to be an “entertainment complex”.
And further.. so what is the theory then on how this “entertainment complex” found it’s location in the middle of a sewage system? This should be good too…
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Good to know.
I think it’s past my bedtime —
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