So I’ve decided to bring the “Kathy” series to an end. However, we’ve had some fun in those threads when the conversation has gone off into interesting tangents, so I’d like to keep that part of it going for anyone who’s interested. These new threads will no longer focus on Kathy or the things we were discussing with her. So thanks for your time, Kathy! Take care.
There are no real rules for these threads. But to kick off the conversation, I’ll go back to the discussion on Paul that a few of us were having. Laurie views Deut 13 as a prophecy about Paul, so why don’t we take a quick look at it?
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. 9 But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11 And all Israel shall hear and fear and never again do any such wickedness as this among you.
12 “If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, 13 that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, 14 then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, 15 you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. 16 You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. It shall be a heap forever. It shall not be built again. 17 None of the devoted things shall stick to your hand, that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger and show you mercy and have compassion on you and multiply you, as he swore to your fathers, 18 if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, and doing what is right in the sight of the Lord your God.
I can see how one could apply this to Paul. However, I can also see how Jews could have applied it to Jesus as well, especially if he was claiming divinity for himself. And I’m sure this could have applied to lots of people during Israel’s history. Why should we think it’s pointing to Paul specifically, and why wouldn’t it also apply to Jesus?
Finding Truth 
“Speaking of Neil Tyson, Kathy, to date, exactly how many websites, and Twitter and Facebook accounts have you and your rants been banned from? Or have you lost count?”
The only accounts I’ve been banned from are all Huffington Post accounts and 1 other site, by Steven Weber. And I was banned because I would always start talking about God and that’s when he couldn’t tolerate me (the Truth) anymore.. well, sometimes it was my liberal rants too.. because he knew I was talking about him along with all the other liberals.. again, they’re all the same.
I’ve never debated Alec Baldwin.. don’t know where that came from..
I’ve never been banned from twitter.. but blocked by several people who ALSO didn’t want to hear about God and didn’t want to have to defend their claims that God doesn’t exist. They knew it was much easier to just block me.
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Oh wait. Sorry, I forgot all about dem Marthas, oh I meant martyrs.
And what else? Because we didn’t evolve from pond scum? Let me think what else did I miss…
oh oh and cause the universe need a creator and God doesn’t need a creator right?
Please tell me if I missed anything.
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It was never meant to be an “entertainment complex”.
Kathy, when you had sex with your boyfriend, did he enjoy it? Did you? I suspect you probably didn’t but availed yourself as “entertainment” for him, no? Did he have fun? Apparently your boyfriend did because he had an orgasm and together, you had a daughter.
Furthermore, has a sexual partner ever poked you in another area, unintentionally, while in the throes of passion? Yes, I’m talking about your anus, part of the sewage system, which is just centimeters from the entrance of your vagina. And while we’re on the subject, did you ever get a painful bladder and/or urinary track infection a.k.a. Honeymoon Cystitis (a medical term), because E.coli bacteria, which tend to live on the skin around your anus, mingled with your entertainment juices and was transferred to your urethra via your partner’s fingers or penis?.
“And further.. so what is the theory then on how this “entertainment complex” found it’s location in the middle of a sewage system? This should be good too…”
I don’t know Kathy. Why skin tags? I also agree with Tyson that separate holes for eating and breathing would be a far better design. Choking is a common cause of accidental death in young children, and on average, around 3,000 adults die each year in America from choking on food. If this was the best design your all-knowing god could come up with, I’m not impressed.
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@Brandon
Thanks for the discussion. You’re the first person I’ve met online that returned to Christianity after deconverting. I like your version of God that rewards all those that seek him. It’s a different type of God then the one I believed when I was a Baptist Fundamentalist Christian. One thing that prevents me from believing in your God is that I could not justify it rationally. I don’t feel compelled the way you do about the Bible, it looks man-made to me. As much as it may be comforting to think there is a powerful being out there that can speak to us after we die, I can’t just wish him into existence.
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@Brandon,
I think Dave put it very well in this latest comment:
I agree – I think it would be wonderful if there was a god who represented true goodness and was looking over those who desired to follow in a way that was good (and “good” defined the way the vast majority of people define it, not the way extremists define it). It would be excellent if that god were involved in the world making it a more positive place for everyone to live. It would be very nice if there was some universal good purpose that was “ultimate”. But the scriptures of the different religions of the world all look man made to me – they exhibit the same features of paranoid superstitious thinking that has been shown to be unproductive in properly learning about our world. There are many mysteries in our world, and I simply don’t have a problem with stating the honest truth about those mysteries – I don’t have the answer to them. I learn every day, and some mysteries seem to be resolved very reasonably with critical reasoning and empirical investigations, but some are still elusive. I don’t see a reason to claim that I have the answers to those things that are elusive – for me to do so wouldn’t feel honest to me. Some believe they have the answers to many of those mysteries, and all I can say to them is that they are not me – I make no judgments about them because I don’t wear their shoes. I wish others could realize they don’t wear my shoes as well (although when my kids were very little they always used to love wearing my shoes and showing my wife and I with big grins on their faces – one of the most wonderful feelings a father can have).
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Very well said Howie — Dave too.
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Arch,
I know of this guy,
Who used to work for star command, his name was buzz..I think. or bob, or ben… something with b
he was stationed in the Gamma Quadrant of Sector 4…. Big guy, never took off his suit. into gadgets and what not…referred to himself as a space ranger…
Anyway, he seemed to carry the same outlook in regards to being airborne
Although, he always referred to it as
His best friends a bit sketchy though,
he insists on wearing a cowboy hat and badge.
plus you never see them ever eat anything….
I hear he’s in real estate now…
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I really identify with Dave and Howie’s latest comments. The reason I remain an atheist is much the same as what Howie has often said — it’s God’s hiddenness.
If we strip away our assumptions that are largely grounded in Western culture and Christian tradition — the notion that faith is a good thing — we have to wonder, if God exists, where is he? If a powerful, benevolent being exists, created us, and remains concerned with the kinds of lives we lead, why in the world would he not make himself known to us?
We tell children that they have to be asleep before they get a visit from Santa, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, etc. And we might make excuses for that, like “Santa’s just too busy trying to get to every house on Christmas Eve…” But the real reason, of course, is that those beings don’t exist. Why should we think it’s any different with God? We don’t see him because he’s just not there.
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We tell children that they have to be asleep before they get a visit from Santa, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, etc. And we might make excuses for that, like “Santa’s just too busy trying to get to every house on Christmas Eve…” But the real reason, of course, is that those beings don’t exist. Why should we think it’s any different with God? We don’t see him because he’s just not there.
Over the years I’ve made all kinds of excuses as to why God doesn’t make himself known or visible. The most compelling one being that this kind of revelation ended with the death the disciples because God had made everything known that needed to be made known. But then that kind of kills any idea that God is also a personal God. If God is a personal God it’s sort of imperative that he actually be personally known. Now some may argue that he does this through prayer or what-have-you ( I know he’s real because I talked to him today). But we all know that’s just code for I poured my heart out and it made me feel better.
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Howie, as we both know, having what is considered a religious experience or change in behavior is not an indication of a Creator/God. And as you know, Brandon had a religious experience, followed by changed behavior that convinced him that God was real, as was the resurrection of JC.
But we both know that these experiences (changed behavior) are quite common and caused by a placebo effect, and has been demonstrated in this excellent documentary (in particular, parts 3 & 4) you shared with me a while back.
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/question-of-miracles-faith-healing/
According to WebMD, more than 50% of doctors prescribe placebos (fake prescriptions — sugar pills) to their patients.
N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ
hope your morning is off to a good start
I have a question, considering your outlook on spiritual experiences,
– What prevents you from rationalising away a genuine divine interaction, and instead calling it something else because it doesn’t fit your starting premises?
In every case, even when more than one person has a shared experience,
you could rationalise it all away, and call it something else.
even if this actually was a genuine and real spiritual experience.
How do you resolve this?
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N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ
For example, say a person had visitation from a messenger from God.
They were home alone and they were met by a bright light, and person facing them.
After some days after this interaction has passed, and they are left reflecting…
That person could dismiss that to be a dream. They could reason that their brain was deprived of sleep, or oxygen, or they were dehydrated.
They could say that because you only encountered it, that it was just a hallucination…
But even if they shared this encounter with a group of 8 people, that person could still dismiss it upon reflection, and instead call it a mass hallucination, or slap a psychological term on it so it makes sense, so it can be put in a box and categorised.
Now say that person actually received an encounter from God that day on Oct 1st, 3:47pm 2012. Whether alone or in a group.
What then? Would it be safer to pretend it didn’t happen and call it something else…
It would definitely help make life more rational, and perhaps easier to make sense of….
But that does not mean the rationalisations constructed after the encounter are an actual reflection of what actually happened in reality.
I sometimes think people would rather the psychological reasoning, since it takes off the edge. As long as we have an answer right? it makes the world less ambiguous, but is the world actually less ambiguous?
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Hi Ryan, you’re up late. Hope you had a great day. Here’s the thing Ryan, you don’t need a god belief to have these experiences. I can zap you with complex magnetic waveforms and you’d go to la la land real quick. 😀
But you can wire your brain to have these experiences, which basically release lots of opiates. The placebo effect is real and can take place simply by the power of suggestion. Evangelicals and revivalist know this all too well.
You can have a sensed presence experiences from oxygen deprivation while climbing a mountain (“I’ve been to the mountaintop”). You can have these experiences from sensory deprivation, monotony, darkness, barren landscapes, isolation, cold, injury, dehydration, hunger, fatigue and fear.
During oxygen deprivation, sleep deprivation or exhaustion, the rational cortical control over emotions shuts down, as in the fight-or-flight response, enabling inner voices and imaginary companions to arise. Also hallucinations can arise from melatonin imbalances or abnormal amounts of dopamine production.
The left-hemisphere is an interpreter — the brain’s storyteller that pulls together countless inputs into a meaningful narrative story.
So my point is, and I ask this question all the time, yet no believer has yet to answer it: how do you discern? How do you know that these people claiming to have experiences in the bible didn’t experience the above or had a neurological disorder that can cause hyper-religiosity? Environmental conditions were certainly right for these ancients. Consider this. 1 in 10 people will have at lease one seizure in there lifetime.
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@N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ – “Kathy, when you had sex with your boyfriend, did he enjoy it?”,
oh, that was so delightful,
I laughed sooo hard and my brain was flooded with serotonin.
you made me sooo happy.
Kathy would be a lot happier person, too, if she indulged in some anal.
works for me every time.
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@Victoria,
Re: placebo effect – absolutely. And the many studies done on prayer haven’t shown any statistical significance when factoring in the placebo effect.
A few things here that seem pretty conclusive to me:
Link #1 : Here the most comprehensive and scientifically rigorous study done (and funded by a group that believes God exists) shows prayer does not work. Some quotes from that article:
Link #2 : The American Cancer Society claims the evidence is not there for prayer being effective, and also mentions the placebo effect as well. A quote from that article:
I’ve seen other studies quoted to prove there is some effect, but these were either not done rigorously, weren’t comprehensive enough, or even note that the placebo effect is not ruled out.
Link #3 : Even the Cochrane Collaboration believes that it is not even worth it for more studies to be done. This is particularly bad because this group is made of believers in God, and they had previously been recommending more studies because they were hopeful there was an effect. A quote:
(by the way, I didn’t point you to that miracles video, I had pointed you to the other video you linked to before. I know this because I have an eidetic memory just like Arch 😉 ).
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Ryan, I’m not sure I follow. You then say:
I see it just the opposite. People would rather believe it’s a supernatural experience, hence, the explosion of religion. We are predominately a superstitious, pattern seeking species. We crave acknowledgement and anticipation. In fact, we are neurologically reward more with anticipation, e.g.., the promise of heaven.
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N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ your asked:
“how do you discern?”
that’s a fair question I think
That’s one of my number 1 questions, for me currently,
knowing whether God is speaking to me or not is difficult for me to understand.
I even ask for objective clarification sometimes. This may sound strange but anyway here goes….
I might pray: if you really don’t/do want me to do this, please knock off one of the books from my shelf…
Perhaps I should ask for a specific book.
I try to ask something that won’t randomly happen, for example I don’t ask that a specific coloured car passes by..since that would be magical thinking. and could otherwise just happen, its not reliable conformation.
This might sound crazy, but I’m just being honest
I then think… what if by asking this I’m testing God….but then again I think, if God really wants me to do something specific (that I’m not sure is specified in the Bible how exactly he wants me to do it). then I otherwise need clear and specific clarification. unless God wants me just to trust and try my best and the inspiration will come as I step out in engaging faithfully…
But then that’s where faith comes in, and I wonder if I just don’t trust enough, and friends have advised that I just need to trust…
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Kathy, you lying sack of shit, you got blocked by Greg Gutfeld, of fox news, for crying out loud.
greg effin gutfeld, the man that wrote the book, “The Joy of Hate”
he’s an even bigger piece of anal sex residue than you are.
and what is really pathetic, is how you beg and grovel for him to unblock you,
here, let me embarrass you all over again in your own twatter words:
“Kathy @kayms99 · Sep 13
@TheFive @Greggutfeld great idea tha u’ll LOVE..BD person gets 2 choose all songs..no need 2 thank me, unbloc will b more than enough,thx!”
“Kathy @kayms99 · Sep 12
@TheFive Happy b’day @greggutfeld! Pls unblock me? Us over the hill righty Virgos gotta stick together!! 🙂 #justdoit #doitnow #awecomonpls?”
“Kathy @kayms99 · Sep 2
@tomprzybylinski @greggutfeld Say tennis is awesome, Greg. 🙂 and unblock me.. #justdoit”
“Kathy @kayms99 · Aug 29
@TheFive @greggutfeld You were so close.. only a few letters off.. thank you in advance! oh, and unblock me too.. #justdoit”
TOTALLY PATHETIC KATHY, YOU REALLY ARE POND SCUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OH, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
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oh, and Kathy is still bashing gay people, she just twatted this:
“Kathy @kayms99 · 17h
@TheFive @greggutfeld Protecting marriage is evn MORE important than protecting PTSD. It’s about the children, this is the 1% where ur wrong”
FUCK YOU, BITCH!!!!!!!!! GO FUCKING DIE!!!!!!!!!
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“(by the way, I didn’t point you to that miracles video, I had pointed you to the other video you linked to before. I know this because I have an eidetic memory just like Arch 😉 ).”
LOL — I’m dying laughing over here. Clearly, I don’t have an eidetic or “near” eidetic memory — but I remember now that it was Ken (KC) who shared the video in one of the Kathy posts, part II, I think. Can’t recommend it enough to others. I know you’ve seen it. Thanks for the feedback and links.
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else…
then again, “safer” is not the right word,
But I think it would make people more comfortable to believe that such an divine encounter was just chemicals in the brain,
since then no response is required,
and any guidance the person received during this experience gave could be then dismissed, hence no responsibility to respond.
Since treating it as real would disrupt their lives and possible their plans.
In this sense I could see why a psychological deconstruction could be used, even if the encounter was more than this. Or that what is consisted of extended beyond experiences we could categorise and measure.
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Apologies for the typos, my internet is slow, and its late 😛
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“we are more dependent on our sometimes unconscious provisions that we might like to admit.” – I couldn’t agree more, Portal, but I see that as something natural, not magic.
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“Nan,
All good, I can stop with the videos if you like.”
Portal, have you never heard the fable about the man, his son and a donkey on a journey? When you try pleasing everyone, you end up pleasing no one, including yourself.
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Ryan, I second what Arch said, I couldn’t agree. While I think that belief can have some benefits for individuals, as in dealing with death anxiety (Terror Management), there are some serious side-effects to the placebo effect. Phil Hellenes said it well in his superb, educational video Dust That Sings:
:
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