Open Conversation Part 1

So I’ve decided to bring the “Kathy” series to an end. However, we’ve had some fun in those threads when the conversation has gone off into interesting tangents, so I’d like to keep that part of it going for anyone who’s interested. These new threads will no longer focus on Kathy or the things we were discussing with her. So thanks for your time, Kathy! Take care.

There are no real rules for these threads. But to kick off the conversation, I’ll go back to the discussion on Paul that a few of us were having. Laurie views Deut 13 as a prophecy about Paul, so why don’t we take a quick look at it?

“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. 9 But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11 And all Israel shall hear and fear and never again do any such wickedness as this among you.

12 “If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, 13 that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, 14 then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, 15 you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. 16 You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. It shall be a heap forever. It shall not be built again. 17 None of the devoted things shall stick to your hand, that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger and show you mercy and have compassion on you and multiply you, as he swore to your fathers, 18 if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, and doing what is right in the sight of the Lord your God.

I can see how one could apply this to Paul. However, I can also see how Jews could have applied it to Jesus as well, especially if he was claiming divinity for himself. And I’m sure this could have applied to lots of people during Israel’s history. Why should we think it’s pointing to Paul specifically, and why wouldn’t it also apply to Jesus?

1,090 thoughts on “Open Conversation Part 1”

  1. I might pray: if you really don’t/do want me to do this, please knock off one of the books from my shelf…” – did it occur to you, Portal, that if there is an omniscient being out there, that it wouldn’t need the telepathic communication of prayer?

    I then think… what if by asking this I’m testing God.” – Can you see, Portal, how religion – particularly the Christian religion – sucks you in and ensnares you? Your rational mind tells you that you need to examine things, to determine validity, etc., but religion tells you NOT to do that, that if you do, you’re doubting god. It strikes me that if there really WERE a god, and he was truly on our side, he would want us to use the abilities he gave us, including the ability to reason, to be completely sure that what we believed in was true. But Christianity doesn’t do that – throughout the Bible, there are cautions about too much knowledge being a dangerous thing – don’t examine the magic show too closely, you’ll ruin the illusion.

    Frankly Portal, I don’t believe there’s a duplicitous bone in your body, I think you’re an earnest young man on a quest for knowledge, and I wish you all the luck in the world.


  2. Hey just wondering,

    does anyone find it strange that we can have dreams where we feel and perceive what it is to fly, yet we have never really flown in our waking life?

    Where does this point of reference come from?

    The closest I’ve come to flying was sky diving (falling with style) and bungee jumping (dangling with terror).

    Yet even before I had these experiences of being in the sky in my waking life, I still knew what is was to fly,

    since I could still perceive what it was to fly if I stopped and thought about it. I also had a specific dream when I was a child. And that was way before skydiving or bungee. My mum has dreams of flying quite a bit.

    Where did this point of reference come from? Where did I get these perceptions from? Where do other people get them? People who have always had their feet firmly on the ground, and have only known this.

    Has anyone else have such experiences in their dreams?


  3. Hi Paul,

    So does that mean you believe in aliens?


    Were you ever a pilot in real life, where did this experience come from. I mean, Where was it derived,

    Was it pieced together through television shows you watched?

    Fragments of selective footage of planes in the air?

    What about the feelings and sensations involved with flying and piloting a plane in the dream?

    if you had never had flown before at that point as a child, then where did these sensations and perspectives come from?


  4. Portal — GO TO BED!

    In answer to your questions, the answer is no. I have no idea where this came from except perhaps a secret or intellectually unknown desire to pilot a plane. I mean, really, who knows where dreams come from? Especially the bizarre ones.

    Are you trying to say they come from a supernatural source?


  5. I mean that dreams could be inspired by the supernatural that is. Not all dreams maybe. And here we get back to the question of discernment. How to tell if a dream is exceptionally more than a dream and a mix of emotionally triggered impressions and empathy driven scenarios


  6. arch, if I had to choose between you and Nate, I’d go for Nate, no offense, but you look just like a dried up old fossil!” – Naturally I’m crushed, Paul, but I’ll try but I’ll try to bear up.


  7. portal, most definitely,
    unlike god, I have seen them and touched them,
    they did the whole exam routine on me.
    now, remember, I was 6 yrs old in 1966,
    this was way before your time.
    if you know anything about ufology, of course you know Barney and Betty Hill.

    I had no idea you are such a young person,

    anyway, although ufo’s and aliens were common in the popular culture of that time,
    these gray alien’s were not, I had never heard of the hills.

    anyway, after it happened I had run into my parents room and described everything in detail,
    they of course didn’t believe me, it was 1966.
    but to this day they remember me describing it all to them.
    and ever abduction case I hear about is the same as mine in every detail,
    from the needle in the eye,
    to the total final destruction of the earth.

    it’s all very real.


  8. Well, I haven’t caught up on all the comments yet, but Paul — it’s safe to say that a number of people would likely be offended by your avatar (and the last video). If you don’t mind switching to a slightly more pc avatar, I’ll take care of the video.

    Thanks 🙂


  9. Any chance, Portal, that you and your family were birds in another life? We could be related! I could have been your great, great-grandfather, a zillion times removed!

    I don’t crack up often, but this did it:
    bungee jumping (dangling with terror)


  10. “– Snarky” does not become you, Neuro –”

    Archie poo poo, does anything I do these days become me according to you? 😛

    Nan, thank you for missing me. Had some business to take care of.

    Ryan, by now I hope you have gone to bed. Hope you get your REM in. You don’t want to encourage hallucinations. 😀 Which reminds me, did you ever watch that Star Trek episode when the crew of the Enterprise was deprived of REM (rapid eye movement) sleep because of some freaky space glitch and started having hallucinations during their waking hours?

    You wrote:

    “Hey just wondering, does anyone find it strange that we can have dreams where we feel and perceive what it is to fly, yet we have never really flown in our waking life?”

    If you’ve never flown, you know, like Peter Pan, how do you know what it actually feels like? I wouldn’t think that falling from the sky at high speeds and g-forces would compare to soaring like an eagle. Maybe hang gliding would give you the closest sensation. But I could imagine what it might feel like by observing birds flying and say, riding a bike, feeling the wind against my skin.

    I dreamed of flying a lot when I was a kid, too. Loved Peter Pan. Would think happy thoughts and off I went. But I can’t say that I know exactly what it is like to fly and I’ve never gone hang gliding.


  11. Well, it’s possible.

    When I said, “You’re young, Portal – with any luck, you’ll get over that.” – I didn’t mean “dream-flying,” Portal, I meant being young.


  12. I think we need N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ to step in right about now. Where are you, Victoria?” – probably stoned out somewhere on dopamine —


  13. Ryan, I can also tell you that before I had a baby, I used to dream of having a baby. I’d feel pain, etc. But I can tell you that unless you’ve had a baby, you have NO idea what it’s like, no matter the night dreams or day dreams. 😉


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