So I’ve decided to bring the “Kathy” series to an end. However, we’ve had some fun in those threads when the conversation has gone off into interesting tangents, so I’d like to keep that part of it going for anyone who’s interested. These new threads will no longer focus on Kathy or the things we were discussing with her. So thanks for your time, Kathy! Take care.
There are no real rules for these threads. But to kick off the conversation, I’ll go back to the discussion on Paul that a few of us were having. Laurie views Deut 13 as a prophecy about Paul, so why don’t we take a quick look at it?
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. 9 But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11 And all Israel shall hear and fear and never again do any such wickedness as this among you.
12 “If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, 13 that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, 14 then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, 15 you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. 16 You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. It shall be a heap forever. It shall not be built again. 17 None of the devoted things shall stick to your hand, that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger and show you mercy and have compassion on you and multiply you, as he swore to your fathers, 18 if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, and doing what is right in the sight of the Lord your God.
I can see how one could apply this to Paul. However, I can also see how Jews could have applied it to Jesus as well, especially if he was claiming divinity for himself. And I’m sure this could have applied to lots of people during Israel’s history. Why should we think it’s pointing to Paul specifically, and why wouldn’t it also apply to Jesus?
Finding Truth 
. . .ain’t NO WAY I’m sharing my dreams with you all. . . 🙂
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Oh, come on Carmen. I wanna know. 😈
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It could, if you played your cards right —
(Neuro: “Does that line ever work?”
Arch: “Not yet –“)
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“It could, if you played your cards right —“
I shudder to think.
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That’s not your back, that’s your front – NOW who’s stoned?!
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“I shudder to think.” – Me too, and sometimes it helps!
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Clicky
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Geez, I bet you two could keep going all night!
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Good gawd, Carmen, don’t fan the fire. That’s just what he’s hoping for, and I ain’t talkin’ about jesting.
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I’d like to throw in my 2 cents on the comments talking about 50/50 odds or the likelihood of an eternal universe vs. an eternal god.
I think using words like odds or likelihood don’t really apply to this question. If something has no beginning then it has no odds. It’s just there. We may not like this, but it must be that some things just exist for no reason at all. For theists, God, and for naturalists, the Multiverse.
I think we need to break things down into steps and look at each one and then ask ourselves if each step looks like it was orchestrated or not.
The Big Bang – Does a big explosion require intelligence? Theists always want to discuss what caused the big bang, but how come they don’t talk about supernovas? What if we became just as concerned about supernovas and puzzled over what was causing them?
We should study what science has discovered about supernovas, not pretend that there are invisible men banging things together to cause supernovas. We need to look at the scientific theories and see if they make sense and have evidence to back them up. To skip this research and just say “goddidit” is just being lazy.
Star formation – Does star formation require intelligence? Again, look at the scientific theories and observations. Continue this step-by-step process with the formation of: planets, molecules, complex molecules, chemicals, acids, proteins and so on. Read about the observations that have been made, read the scientific theories and look at the data. If you’re not into this sort of thing then just say “don’t know, don’t care” and skip the “goddidit” answer which does not help us figure out anything.
God is just a word that we use in place of “I don’t know how it happened”. God is just a concept inside our heads. Think carefully about how Theistic Philosophers have defined God: a mind with no body, a mind with no matter, a mind with no time, a mind with no space, a mind you can’t see, a mind that does not change. Take all these properties and what do you have? A mind made of nothing. A mind that does not exist.
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Neuro,
“And further.. so what is the theory then on how this “entertainment complex” found it’s location in the middle of a sewage system? This should be good too…”
I don’t know Kathy. Why skin tags? I also agree with Tyson that separate holes for eating and breathing would be a far better design. Choking is a common cause of accidental death in young children, and on average, around 3,000 adults die each year in America from choking on food. If this was the best design your all-knowing god could come up with, I’m not impressed.”
You missed the point. If we aren’t creations with thought and planning, then I’d really like to know the “theory” of how anything about us ended up the way it did via evolution. I’d be willing to be that if you were correct, you’d be complaining about a lot more than locations of genitals.
As for the “entertainment complex” issue.. you again missed the point. I don’t deny that we are to experience pleasure during sex.. Christians fully understand the concept of procreation and how and why God designed this for us. But again, I repeat, having pleasure during the act of procreation is a long way from turning it all into “entertainment”. When we do, that’s when the problems begin.
And please feel free to construct the “better” human body.. go ahead.. and see how much you are inclined to procreate after visualizing that. Again, you all fail to look at the big picture. Instead of being amazed at how our bodies work and the beauty of them.. you choose to seek out the things that you feel are imperfect. Not giving a second thought to the overall complexity of not only our bodies but of existence and our meaning/ purpose.
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Good points, Dave. Only thing is — we must test hypotheses. Ryan brought up a good point. He was worried about “testing” god. When I was a devout believer, I felt the same way. There are a few scriptures in the bible where a fleece is presented before Yahweh. But the crux of the Christian belief system is faith.
When I started studying science during my deconversion, things started to fall into place — my life-long questions were finally being answered. Is there a god? I don’t know. One thing I do know, and I base this on 40 years of faithfulness; if there is a god, it’s impersonal, despite what scriptures say. If one hears voices in their head, it’s most likely their own internal dialog. The average person speaks to themselves at a rate of 300 to 1000 words per minute.
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“You missed the point.”
No Kathy, you missed the point, and you lack a sense of humor. Tyson was brilliant.
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Tyson is really NOT that brilliant.. he’s been super hyped by atheists / liberals because you all literally “worship” him in place of God.. but he fails to live up to it. Funny, it was the same way with Obama.. and boy did he fail to live up to it!
And I have a GREAT sense of humor. It’s one of the many blessings God has given us.
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So you credit god with your sense of humour, Kathy? How about the blessings you DON’T have? Whose fault is that?
You see, that’s the thing that I find the most perplexing about christians – all credit for good is given to god, but s/he/it gets absolutely no blame for anything negative. To me, there’s something amiss about the ‘holy spook’.
The thing about talking to yourself is that no one talks back.
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Wondered how long it would be before Kathy would start using her pet terms for those who don’t agree with her.
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Something I’ve always wondered about is why must there be a cause and effect, a beginning and an end? Yes, we see it in our world and scientists have, for the most part, demonstrated it. Yet, how can we know for certain that this isn’t a human construct? We are, after all, nothing but tiny specks in the vast dimensions of time and space.
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Carmen,
Here you are providing yet another example of how the liberal minded prefer to focus on
the few things you dislike, due to a lack of understanding, instead of acknowledging the positive. It’s nothing but judging of God without acknowledging for an instant His superiority and greatness in contrast to your actual place in the big picture. In other words.. a simple lack of humility.. aka.. too much pride.
The less gratitude you have, the less you will be blessed .. simple basic logic/ common sense. Why would God continue to bless you if you not only lack gratitude but actually despise Him and call Him names?
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Whoa Nan! That involves thinking – much easier to just say “Godidit”. Works for Kathy!
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“Wondered how long it would be before Kathy would start using her pet terms for those who don’t agree with her.”
What other descriptions do you suggest Nan? All of you adhere to the same basic beliefs and ideology.. am I not “allowed” to use the terms that actually apply??
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True enough, Carmen.
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“Whoa Nan! That involves thinking – much easier to just say “Godidit”. Works for Kathy!”
Hey Carmen.. if you look over the last 6 blog postings.. I’m pretty sure I’ve elaborated a little more than that. 🙂 It’s not me who is taking the “easy” route.. it’s those who run away from the debates.. like.. Laurie? Where is she? she was the reason I came back. I’m here to debate, but I always find myself getting dragged into these pointless back and forths.
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Why do you have to use “descriptions” at all, Kathy? Why not just state what you believe and let it go at that?
Besides, it isn’t about whether you are “allowed” to make these assumptions. It’s a matter of you making judgments about people you don’t even know.
Re: Laurie — although not demonstrated by some of us here, there are those who have a life besides posting on blogs … and arguing with you, Kathy.
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“Something I’ve always wondered about is why must there be a cause and effect, a beginning and an end? Yes, we see it in our world and scientists have, for the most part, demonstrated it. Yet, how can we know for certain that this isn’t a human construct? We are, after all, nothing but tiny specks in the vast dimensions of time and space.”
Scientists are in agreement that the universe is expanding.. that indicates a starting / beginning
point.
Our minds are not capable of understanding or accepting the idea of no beginning or end. It just doesn’t make sense. And it conflicts with science.. the very basis of atheist thinking and beliefs.
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. .. sigh. . . sorry, Kathy. This is only a debate in your mind – you know, the place where god lives? And what kind of ‘blessings’ are you talking about Kathy? I think I have pretty much everything I want or need – I guess even an old heathen like me gets lucky. ‘Cause that’s what it is, Kathy – no ‘blessings’ to it. There’s even a name for it – life. It’s what you make it.
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