So I’ve decided to bring the “Kathy” series to an end. However, we’ve had some fun in those threads when the conversation has gone off into interesting tangents, so I’d like to keep that part of it going for anyone who’s interested. These new threads will no longer focus on Kathy or the things we were discussing with her. So thanks for your time, Kathy! Take care.
There are no real rules for these threads. But to kick off the conversation, I’ll go back to the discussion on Paul that a few of us were having. Laurie views Deut 13 as a prophecy about Paul, so why don’t we take a quick look at it?
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. 9 But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11 And all Israel shall hear and fear and never again do any such wickedness as this among you.
12 “If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, 13 that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, 14 then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, 15 you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. 16 You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. It shall be a heap forever. It shall not be built again. 17 None of the devoted things shall stick to your hand, that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger and show you mercy and have compassion on you and multiply you, as he swore to your fathers, 18 if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, and doing what is right in the sight of the Lord your God.
I can see how one could apply this to Paul. However, I can also see how Jews could have applied it to Jesus as well, especially if he was claiming divinity for himself. And I’m sure this could have applied to lots of people during Israel’s history. Why should we think it’s pointing to Paul specifically, and why wouldn’t it also apply to Jesus?
Finding Truth 
Kathy,
➡ Don’t say you know its name.
➡ Don’t say it told you to tell people what to do with their lives.
➡ Don’t say that those who believe otherwise must be punished.
➡ Don’t say it sends earthquakes and tsunamis.
➡ Don’t say it ever hurts anyone for any reason because that’s sick.
If you want to believe in a creator, we really don’t have a problem with that. But the god you worship acts just like you, and that is bad for humanity.
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Neuro, I don’t understand.. I can’t say what I believe, but you can?
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Kathy, the god you worship has very human qualities — and the mindset and intelligence of a Bronze/Iron age war god; the temperament of a dictator and your average alpha male chimpanzee.
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Neuro –
LOL-y
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“Geez, I bet you two could keep going all night!” – actually, I’ve had fantasies about just that —
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Do I know you or what..! Nate was spot on. Horny indeed.
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You know, I never said most of those things on that list.. so, what does that say about your mindset? I would never think that I had the right to tell anyone what to do with their lives. I’ve never said that God sends earthquakes. I do believe that we lose God’s protection when we don’t obey Him.
Clearly you are bothered by what others believe concerning God. I can’t help that. And if I was an atheist, it would bother me too. But, you’re not going to be able to silence Christians from speaking about what the Bible tells us. If the Bible didn’t have the credentials that it does, I’d be able to see your point, but since it IS credentialed.. since there IS compelling evidence to back up it’s Truth, why can’t you see OUR point of view?
The major differences between the two sides is that we DO have something to back up our beliefs.. and you all only have your own reasoning.. without anything to back up your beliefs. Did you or anyone notice the ABSENCE of the compelling evidence I asked for that says we are not created beings?? The evidence favors the believer’s view. So, therefore, you all should be more understanding of our beliefs.
But, again, I’m not, I haven’t been, one of those people who wants to make you feel uncomfortable in order to agree with me, like I’ve noticed others here like to do.. but I’m not going to change my beliefs either. This blog is about the question of God’s existence.. but you are trying to censor me from talking about my beliefs on this subject… again, that come from a credentialed Book.. not a creation from my own mind.
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“Kathy, the god you worship has very human qualities — and the mindset and intelligence of a Bronze/Iron age war god; the temperament of a dictator and your average alpha male chimpanzee.”
Clearly you’ve chosen to ignore the entire NEW Testament.. none of which has any qualities similar to a dictator or a chimp.
But, AGAIN, this IS what non believers do… ignore the good and instead focus on those things you don’t care to try and understand.
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Kathy, let me rephrase that. You believe the bible is the word of god. A guidebook for humanity.
➡ It told you to tell people what to do with their lives.
➡ It told you that those who believe otherwise must be punished.
➡ It told you that it sends earthquakes and other natural disasters.
➡ It performed, commanded and condoned horrific atrocities.
Now I ask. Why would you worship such a deity? Why in the hell would you worship someone who created a hell? When I was a believer, I was blinded by this antisocial behavior. But as I studied, I became more and more aware that this god figure represented the worst of human behavior. I can only surmise that you worship this god because you fear hell.
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“I’m here to debate,”
Well I’m here to invent the perpetual motion machine, but I don’t know any more about how to do that than you know how to debate. We don’t always get what we want.
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Revelations 19:
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Kathy, you are blinded by your love for god. If you can justify this dictator behavior, than I can only come to the conclusion that you experience a form of Stockholm syndrome.
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“Scientists are in agreement that the universe is expanding.. that indicates a starting / beginning
point.”
Not necessarily, Kathy – since we don’t know what happened prior to the singularity, it could well be that our galaxy existed, then contracted into the singularity, then expanded again. You really shouldn’t be trying to think at this late date in your life.
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“There’s even a name for it – life. It’s what you make it.” – what have you made of YOURS, Kathy?
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“Do I know you or what..!” – sorry I was late with that, it would have been funnier if I had come in right behind your response to Carmen, but I was outside.
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“but since it IS credentialed.. since there IS compelling evidence to back up it’s Truth, why can’t you see OUR point of view?” – because that “compelling evidence” exists only in your indoctrinated mind.
“Did you or anyone notice the ABSENCE of the compelling evidence I asked for that says we are not created beings??” – See, this is one of the many, MANY reasons that I say you don’t have a clue about what a debate is. In a court case, for example – which IS a debate – the prosecution has to make its case, otherwise the case is dismissed and the defense has no further obligation. YOU, stated a case, that we were created beings, but you offered no proof, which dismissed the case.
The only thing about you that makes ME uncomfortable, is the complete and total waste of a Human mind.
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“Clearly you’ve chosen to ignore the entire NEW Testament.. none of which has any qualities similar to a dictator or a chimp.” – but the NT is BASED on the OT, like a house built on sand.
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@Kathy, replace partner, abuser/controller with the god of your bible.
Re: Stockholm Syndrome
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Hi Portal,
Few comments on your posts –
1) You mentioned that it is more comforting to rationalize that it was not god that you see but rather due to some mind trick, but I highly disagree. When I first realized that all the things I used to believe could be due to chemicals affecting my brain, I was terrified. Things are no longer simple. Believing that god is real and speaking to me is much more comforting than knowing that my actions can be influenced by a wrong smell, or a different sound that I hear. Now that is scary! But alas this is my own experience and I don’t think there is any statistical studies done to say as a species what we find as more comforting – rationalization or belief. But, I would go out on a limb and say that judging by the fact that each religion has their own hallucination – their definition not mine because Muslims obviously do not believe in the holy spirit experience of Christians and vice versa, hence they each believe their experiences are wrong or misguided (provided they don’t believe in satanic influences), it is more likely that people find more comfort believing that experiences are from god rather than thinking about what could be a more rational explanation of things.
Like what Victoria already said, we are a superstitious people.
Anyway, to add on – how can we not rationalize away actual divine experience?
Well, how about Samuel then? (I’m assuming you are Christian) He was called not once not twice but thrice. 1st 2 times he thought that it was his teacher calling him – reasonable right? MIddle of the night someone call your name who you gonna think it is? Your family/friend or the boogie man? In the end God managed to get the message across didn’t it?
How about Gideon? Gets wet, don’t get wet you know the story.
The biggest problem with Christians nowadays is that they assume whatever feeling they get = God instructing them. This is due to the teaching that the Holy Spirit will guide you – how? Through a prompting in your heart.
Seriously when I was a youth leader, my biggest problem was to keep thrashing youngsters with this type of thoughts – Oh I think God says me and that girl should be together. Oh I think God says I should go for this event. Oh I think God says I should not do this and that. Strangely everything sounds like their heart desire.
This doesn’t stop with youths, even the adults. I had my senior pastor once said this during sermon. Holy Spirit speaks in your own voice (he was referring to the prompting in your heart, when he was teaching how the holy spirit prompts and lead). When I asked him about the biblical justification for such teaching he said this: God definitely speaks today we know it to be true, but since obviously we don’t hear booming voice or fingers scribbling on walls, we know that holy spirit speaks in our hearts, and if you notice most of us hear our own voice speaking when we meditate, hence it is most likely and reasonable to believe that the holy spirit interacts with our spirit and thus we hear our own voice when hearing from God.
I kid you not. He actually said this. There are so many logical fallacies there but I am sure all the astute readers will be able to point all the problems out.
2) On dreaming about flying – what makes you think that the dream about yourself flying would be how reality would pan out if we actually fly? E.g. you dreamt that the way you get lifted up, the wind blowing below your arms as you spread them etc. It seems reasonable that wind may blow this way, but it could also be blowing in a new way that you have never experienced before.
Case in point – we all have experience swimming, and keeping our head submerged in pools. How many of us have dreamt about diving to deep depth? Does our dream experience = actual diving experience? Of course not! When you dive your breathing patterns change, movement of your limbs become more restricted due to pressure. All these things you wouldn’t know BUT when you dream that you dive in deep “it all seems so real and correct”. That is my problem with what you are saying Portal – you are asserting that your dream reflect real experience when you wouldn’t know better. I would simply say that chances are what your flying dream reflects are just experiences from dropping from great height and perhaps your sky diving experience and your brain pieced together information and imagine what it would be like if you were flying.
Chances are your brain may be right – bar the nitty gritty details such as air pressure, wind in your face, difficulty in holding up your back straight (ask any gliders and they’ll tell you about it) etc. These tell me more about how our brain is extremely powerful at projection and imagination. Which also explains why it is so easy to hallucinate more than we think.
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“I can only come to the conclusion that you experience a form of Stockholm Syndrome.” – of course we don’t know who indoctrinated HER —
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Neuro,
“Kathy, you are blinded by your love for god. If you can justify this dictator behavior, than I can only come to the conclusion that you experience a form of Stockholm syndrome.”
Let me try it this way..
Where did you come from? Based on the empirical evidence that we have, it’s a 50/50
chance that you are a created being, with a Creator.
So, there is a GOOD chance that you came from a Creator… Someone Who MADE you. And
Who ALSO made every thing around you. He created it all and He OWNS it all… including YOU! Because, AGAIN, He MADE YOU. You may not like this scenario.. but that has NO BEARING on it’s truth.. none what so ever.
Now, the next thing that needs to be understood, that is not, is how GREAT He is.. how powerful He is.. how much more knowledgeable He is than you. So much more than we can’t even fathom.. we can’t even make sense of our very own existence.. it’s beyond our comprehension.. everything we understand is based on a principle that says we CAN’T be.. yet we still are.
This is the kind of reasoning that is ignored by non believers. And again, I like to point to the universe.. look at the sky at night.. THINK about it.. think about where it ends.. and what is after that? What does THAT look like? What does “nothing” look like? What is “nothing”? What does it TAKE to humble a liberal/ atheist??? That’s my ultimate question.. the power of the universe is amazing but the power of pride is right up there with it.. that’s why the Bible is as comprehensive as it is.. ultimately it’s about dealing with human failings with pride being at the top of the list. It’s the very thing that prompted satan to fall away from God.
And it’s your very pride that is causing you to judge God. People who judge others are making an assumption that they know better. That they know all the circumstances involved. I’ll just state here, that you do not. None of us know, again, our minds are not capable of fully knowing all the circumstances involved.. we can’t even explain our own existence. The universe IS for us.. it’s to TELL us our place.. it’s to tell us that we CAN’T understand it all and are in NO position to judge the Creator of what we can’t even explain. But again, human pride is so incredibly powerful that many are blinded by these fundamental basic realities and truths.
You will no doubt think I’m “ranting” here and being “fooled” by my love for God, fooled by a “conspiracy that people spanning over thousand of years were in on.. but, I’ll just refer you back to the 50/50 chance.. if you are wrong, and again, there’s a very good chance you are.. then what I’ve just explained is all true.. they are facts that you cannot change.
And I’ll also repeat that the 50/50 chance is based on our possession of EMPIRICAL evidence, which is none for either choice… but if you combine ALL the evidence, your odds get much much worse.. again, where’s the compelling evidence that we are not created beings?? Where is it???
So, Neuro, you like to claim that believers are being manipulated and fooled and controlled by people with irrational agendas.. ALL of them.. but, I’ve just laid out FACTS. That have come from my own reasoning.. I’m not repeating anyone else’s words. I’m using the brain that God gave me and I’m not allowing pride to interfere.
While I acknowledge that there are many things I don’t understand, that I have questions about.. at no time does that make me feel that I’m justified to dismiss God and turn my back on Him. It only means I have to trust Him and accept that I cannot get all the answers I want.. but that some day I believe I will receive understanding.
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Neuro,
re: Stockholm syndrome …
I think you might be self projecting here.. and can you
guess what your “controller” is?
Yes, that’s right.. PRIDE.
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“He created it all and He OWNS it all… including YOU! Because, AGAIN, He MADE YOU.”
He? Does your god have a penis? The only reason you think your biblical god created it all is because people told you and an ancient, way outdated book.
“And it’s your very pride that is causing you to judge God.”
Kathy, I am OK with saying “I don’t know”. You, on the other hand can’t seem to get those words out. Now who is the one with pride?
“we can’t even explain our own existence.”
Sure we can. Get your head out of the bible and read some science books.
“You will no doubt think I’m “ranting” here and being “fooled” by my love for God, fooled by a “conspiracy that people spanning over thousand of years were in on.. but, I’ll just refer you back to the 50/50 chance.. if you are wrong, and again, there’s a very good chance you are.. then what I’ve just explained is all true.. they are facts that you cannot change.”
Kathy, I’ve counted the cost during my deconversion. If I am wrong, and hell is my punishment for thinking critically, and choosing not to bow down to a manipulative controler who threatens hell if I don’t — I’d rather go to that hell it created. Any person who uses threats of suffering and death to gain obedience has issues. Your god is no exception.
I understand that you think you’re making the right decision, but I’ve been where you’ve been, and I never, ever want to go back. I’ll take my chances.
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Neuro, I’m not trying to “tell” you to do anything and you don’t have to explain anything of a personal nature to me.
I’m debating the evidence and reasoning.
You’ve given no valid arguments to my points..
I’ll use this one as an example…
““we can’t even explain our own existence.”
Sure we can. Get your head out of the bible and read some science books. ”
Explain it then.. or at least identify the book that has the answers to the ultimate
question of how to get something from nothing.
Science books don’t have the answers.. they don’t even come close to answering THE question.
You are actually showing your “indoctrination” by insinuating that education has all the answers.. when that’s just not the case. Again, this indicates a lack of humility that is common among the liberal minded. Science not only does not have the answer.. but it actually argues AGAINST the logic of our existence. But you (and all liberals/ atheists) refuse to acknowledge this.. why? Again it’s because of pride/ lack of humility.
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“Where did you come from? Based on the empirical evidence that we have, it’s a 50/50 chance that you are a created being, with a Creator.”
Kathy, I’ve already demonstrated to you that the odds of there being a creator, and that creator being the god of the Judeo/Christian Bible, is approximately 1/10th of 1 percent, yet you keep clinging to that absurd figure of 50% – I can see that math isn’t one of your strong suits either.
“What does ‘nothing’ look like?” – I would suspect a great deal like the content of your head.
“And it’s your very pride that is causing you to judge God.” – I don’t judge unicorns, or leprechauns, or tooth fairies, or Santa Claus, or god – why would I?
“You will no doubt think I’m ‘ranting’ here and being ‘fooled’ by my love for God,/em>” – Not at all, I think you are mentally ill and in need of serious therapy.
“again, where’s the compelling evidence that we are not created beings?? Where is it??? – Still waiting on your compelling evidence that we are —
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@Nate
Thanks for your response, you really do understand my position, spot on.
I think it definitely has to do with brain structure and function (as opposed to supernatural things). But, I can’t identify it as an emotion. It’s closer to what psychologists categorize as motivation states like hunger and curiosity. Maybe it would fit in this category, but I’m not qualified to say for sure. I wish I had something less vague to say! Well, I don’t want you to think I’m floating off my chair in a mystical trance! And, I’ve recognized at this point that some of my views are rationalizations off of core beliefs. I guess I’m OK admitting now that I’m a human as opposed to a computer. 🙂
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