So I’ve decided to bring the “Kathy” series to an end. However, we’ve had some fun in those threads when the conversation has gone off into interesting tangents, so I’d like to keep that part of it going for anyone who’s interested. These new threads will no longer focus on Kathy or the things we were discussing with her. So thanks for your time, Kathy! Take care.
There are no real rules for these threads. But to kick off the conversation, I’ll go back to the discussion on Paul that a few of us were having. Laurie views Deut 13 as a prophecy about Paul, so why don’t we take a quick look at it?
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. 9 But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11 And all Israel shall hear and fear and never again do any such wickedness as this among you.
12 “If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, 13 that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, 14 then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, 15 you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. 16 You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. It shall be a heap forever. It shall not be built again. 17 None of the devoted things shall stick to your hand, that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger and show you mercy and have compassion on you and multiply you, as he swore to your fathers, 18 if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, and doing what is right in the sight of the Lord your God.
I can see how one could apply this to Paul. However, I can also see how Jews could have applied it to Jesus as well, especially if he was claiming divinity for himself. And I’m sure this could have applied to lots of people during Israel’s history. Why should we think it’s pointing to Paul specifically, and why wouldn’t it also apply to Jesus?
Finding Truth 
“can you guess what your ‘controller’ is?
Yes, that’s right.. PRIDE.”
She has every reason to feel proud, she has pulled herself up by her sandal straps against unimaginable odds, while all you do is haunt blogs and proselytize.
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@Ryan,
Again – just like you conclude that the Christian God is not an exception to this, there are devout Hindus who conclude that Vishnu is not an exception to this. Your response is that you’re not convinced of the validity of the Hindu pantheon, but I have said I am not convinced of the validity of the gods of the bible. And there are many people in India who would disagree with you because they have their experiences. Again, I think it is important to think about our conclusions and beliefs along a continuum of confidence levels. I am doubtful that ghosts exist and many people in the world would say I am justified in having those doubts. All I am saying is that I doubt the existence of personal interactive gods for the same reasons. Ghosts, goblins, fairies, gods, a God, demons, angels, etc. could all very well exist for all I know, but the possibility of their existence is only just that – a possibility. Heartfelt experiences of others is not enough for me to have confidence that any of them exist.
And more importantly Ryan, if there is an all powerful all knowing God that wanted to interact with his created beings then he would have all power to make it so our confidence level in his existence was just as high as our confidence that our friends and family exist. After all, Christians believe that after we die it will be very obvious to us then that God exists. He wants very much to interact with us here in this life but hides himself here, and then after we die all of a sudden it becomes obvious? And in most Christian theologies after we die the decision for us to have a relationship is over – at the very point that he decides to make it clear that he exists the chance is over and we are punished for doubting on earth even when it was so unclear? Ryan, I’m going to be quite frank and tell you exactly what that sounds like to me – a scare tactic similar to ones used by sneaky salesmen.
Ryan I truly appreciate your kind words, and I respect you as well because you have obviously spent a lot of time thinking and reasoning about this subject, and also because you are the nicest robot on the internet.
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“I’m debating the evidence and reasoning.”
Words that Kathy Doesn’t Understand
1. Objectivity
2. Proof
3. Fact
4. Evidence
5. Compelling
6. Debate
7. Truth
8. Hearsay
9. Analogy
10. Obfuscate
11. Logical
12. Context
13. Circular Reasoning
14. Bias
15.Reason
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@Dave
That makes sense Dave, I respect your position.
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@Howie
You know, if I were in your shoes, I’m not sure I would think any differently! I actually like yours and Nate’s and Dave’s position and much better than those who militate against faith.
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In other words, Kathy, Neuro is a person who makes valuable contributions to her fellow Humans, possesses a high degree of intelligence and exhibits considerable insight, whereas, you, based on what can be seen of your questionable contributions here, are basically a waste of skin. Her pride is earned.
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““can you guess what your ‘controller’ is?
Yes, that’s right.. PRIDE.”
She has every reason to feel proud, she has pulled herself up by her sandal straps against unimaginable odds, while all you do is haunt blogs and proselytize.”
You’re confused again.. as usual Arch.
There’s nothing wrong with being proud of personal accomplishments, that’s not what
I’m referring to.. I’m talking about the kind of pride that prevents you from humbling yourself before your Creator.
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“I’m talking about the kind of pride that prevents you from humbling yourself before your Creator.” – I have no creator, while yours is clearly General Mills, makers of Cocoa Puffs.
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And around and around we go.
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She’s a broken record. Well, at the very least, cracked.
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round and round the mulberry bush, and if we are not careful we will all go ah choo ah choo and fall down with Kathy
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Do I get to join in the fun? I’ve missed it so since the old days on the Flying Spaghetti Monster site.
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Kathy, I am new here but I have participated in many of these conversations before. The names and words change, but it is always the same. I want you to know that i am going hiking today, and I am going to purposefully humble myself before my creator. I would have anyway, because on a mountain I am but a lowly inchworm. I know that I am small and insignificant, but I am part of all of life, all matter and space. I’ve got the gift, or the curse, of consciousness. Because I am an atheist, this does not involve any particular deity, but the universe within which life arose. Do you still claim I am prideful because I won’t humble myself before YOUR god?
If Jesus happens to be hiking on the Cranberry Trail on Pack Monadnock today, I guess that would be a game-changer. I think it is going to rain though, and a lot of folks don’t like to hike in the rain. Who am I to think the rain should stop for me?
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“I’m referring to.. I’m talking about the kind of pride that prevents you from humbling yourself before your Creator.”
Kathy, others here are right. Round and round we go again. When I first started dialoging with you, back when Nate started the Kathy posts, I and others posted a lot of information, but you refused to read the links because you accused (and judged) me and others of liberal bias, and the data as well. You refused to open your mind to science, period. Now, with that said, if you think I’m going to go back and bring all this to your attention again, only to have you dis it, yet again, because it counters your assumption that you have the truth, and nothing but the truth, think again.
However, I will re-post this for the 3rd time. My advise to you is get back to living. Haven’t you died enough? That’s what your belief system wants. You belong to a death cult and misery seems to love company. Those of us who have painstakingly deprogrammed ourselves, acutely know how manipulative and controlling your belief system is. You can accuse me all you want of being prideful and lacking humility for not bowing to the biblical god.
Those who reject as much educational material as you have, and believes that using the threat of hell and death in order to gain love, loyalty and obedience is being a good parent, has had neural circuity deactivated in their frontal lobes (executive functioning), and are, IMO, enslaved by the older (fear and reward driven) parts of their brain.
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@ gliese2475
I agree. I am certainly humbled by the vastness of the universe. I am humbled by my tininess within it. What is is absolutely astonishing and I stand in awe. The beauty of a sunrise, or a sunset, the roar of ocean waves lapping at the shore, the majesty of a mountain range all leave me speechless. The knowledge that tectonic plates shifting and the violence by which all of this planet was carved out does nothing to diminish my awe. In fact, it increases it exponentially. Multiply that by knowing just how tiny the the pale blue dot’s place is in the the entire universe and I stand amazed.
The simple lack of belief that a god did any of that is not prideful. Acknowledging that I do not know what a first cause, if in fact there was a first cause, is in no wise egotistical. I do not boast that I have any significant part in it. I don’t fancy myself a special creation. I find it more prideful to believe that all of this was done so that I might have life as some special creation. I find it more prideful to boast that I have a knowledge that I simply do not have and may never have.
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Thanks for that response Brandon. You and those you’ve mentioned have all changed their minds on this subject, some of us more than once, so I think there can be some better understanding in that case.
Yeah, militation has never been my gig. Understanding other views, challenging my own, and figuring out the best ways of compromising to live peacefully in disagreement has always been preferable to me. As I’ve said before several times, if there are gods that want to be involved in that positive process then the more the merrier!
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@Arch,
Wait, why did Neuro get blamed for my snarkiness?
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Ruth and Gliese2475,
I agree with both of you. I am also very aware of my humanity in many ways. If I had a penny for all the mistakes I make in my life (mundane technical mistakes as well as interpersonal) I’d be very rich.
That’s why this whole “pride and ego” thing never really has any meaning to me when it gets thrown around and lobbed over at “all liberals” or “all atheists”, as if we’re all the same. I’ve admitted many times on the blogosphere that I could be wrong. I’m doing as best as I know how to try and form my own worldview and discuss it with others. If there is an all powerful perfect god that never makes mistakes then I’d pale in comparison to it, but I’m just doubtful of it’s existence – doubtful with the realization that I could be wrong.
The weird thing though is that it seems that the more fundamentalist Christians, who are the ones claiming others are prideful, are the ones who are very sure that their own conclusions and worldview are correct. They know for sure that their conclusion that the entire bible is inerrant is correct, and not only that they know that their interpretations of many of the things inside of it are correct. Somehow this very extreme level of confidence in their own abilities is exempt from the label of pride.
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For me personally, I think pride stems more from an aversion to authority, even if that authority is legitimate.
For example, personally it would be prideful of me to not believe in God for the reasons that:
(a) I don’t want to be under Gods authority, even if He is real.
(b) I don’t want to follow Gods decrees, even if They are divine.
(c) I want to dictate every aspect of my life, even at the expense of denying truth.
That to me personally, would cause a state of pride.
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Just edited that. Apologies…
For me personally, I think pride stems more from an aversion to authority, even if that authority is legitimate.
For example, personally it would be prideful of me if I didn’t believe in God for these specific reasons:
(a) I don’t want to be under Gods authority, even if He is real.
(b) I don’t want to follow Gods decrees, even if They are divine.
(c) I want to dictate every aspect of my life, even at the expense of denying truth.
That to me personally, would cause a state of pride.
Since my reasoning would be self centred, and would dismiss what is real for my own preferences.
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So, Ryan, would you say that not believing that God is real is prideful?
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Ruth, I just love those words by the late, great Carl Sagan, and yours as well. I can so relate. After my deconversion, I gained an appreciation for life I’d never had as a believer, and I was awed by the smallest things. Hearing it preached and reading it over and over (in the bible) that my mind (or spirit) and body are constantly warring with each other; that Satan, as a roaring lion walks about seeking whom he may devour; thinking about “am I being tested by God?”, and to view people around me as “evil” and enemies, because they don’t submit to the biblical god, is just messed up and about as oppressive as it gets.
——————
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@Ryan,
I believe the word pride also applies to those who think extremely and abnormally highly of their own abilities even though they are human just like everyone else.
But I agree with you in some sense – if we assume that there is a perfectly good God that desires the best for all of it’s creation (just like I desire the very best for my children and create rules meant to protect them) both here on earth and even in the afterlife (if such a thing exists) then I agree with you.
The problem though is that the Christian view of afterlife doesn’t match up with this view of God though – the Christian view is that this God allows things to be very unclear while we are here on earth and then once we die it becomes clear and at that point it’s too late for his created being to be able to move forward toward reconciliation and an improved life. So in that view God does not desire the best for it’s creation. Some places in the bible even seem to suggest that God chose some for the eternal furnace before the beginning of time. Ryan, have you ever thought about what kind of father you would be if you ever have children? You seem like the kind of guy who would be a very caring father. Is there anything your children could do to you that would cause you to say finally – “that’s it, you have no more chances, off to an eternity of pain for you”? Now try and imagine as well that you didn’t even make it clear to your children what you desired of them. I’m sure you know what my answer is regarding my children. Have you been able to reconcile this Christian concept with the idea of a loving and caring God?
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The devil still believes in God, it’s just that he prefers that he rule instead of God.
I believe in God, but if I still personally go my own way at times despite this, then that seems to be prideful against God.
There have been many times when I have been prideful if this definition is true. And many recent times I have been prideful too.
God asks us not to judge others, lest we be judged…so I have a tall enough order just with myself 🙂
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Kathy,
I apologize for the length. I know you don’t like reading and often complain about long comments, but I wanted to address these things again, because you seem to keep skipping over them.
You keep saying that existence is evidence of a creator. Why? If the existence of your creator isn’t evidence that something created him, then your “reasoning” has serious flaws. You’re having to create doubles standards in order for your claim to hold up in anyway.
You keep saying that the bible has credentials; evidences that it is true and accurate. But all you keep providing as evidence is,
1. Martyrs, which is basically a person’s devotion.
2. Existence. The complex lives and the vast expanses of the universe.
3. Miracles.
4. Fulfilled prophecies.
5. 40 authors taking 1500 years to compose the books we have in the bible.
Each of these have been refuted again and again.
1 and 5 have nothing to do with the supernatural and people dying for things and people writing books happens in other religions and for things that have no religious significance. You dont find books and dying people convincing evidences for the truth of those other things. They are not unique to Christianity and serve in no way as “credentials” or “compelling” evidence for the bible’s claims to the divine.
40 people writing a heavily edited book over a 1500 year span is miraculous, how? You know that the NT writers read the OT right? You know several of the OT writers read other OT writers, right? And if 40 people over 1500 years is convincing, what about 4 authors writing over 150 years? or 1 author taking 37.5 years to write? again, what’s miraculous about that? I could see how 1500 authors writing the bible over 40 days, way back then, would be impressive, but not what you suggest.
Martyrs… I cant believe this still comes up… “Wow, that guy died for something, it must be true… or he thought it must be true.” So you really think all those sikhs who were killed in their house of worship were right?
Number 2 was addressed above, again. If existence = created by some more intelligent entity, then god’s existence = created by some more intelligent entity. If god’s existence doesn’t require a creator, the existence doesn’t require a creator. If you feel like there must be answer for where the universe came from, and the only answer that makes sense to you is from a creator, then why don’t you bother asking where god came from and why can you settle with, “he doesn’t need a creator?”
Numbers 3 and 4 would be compelling except when you really look at them. The bible CLAIMS there were miracles. Some of these were healing the sick, or creating food from nothing, or raising the dead. Some of these miracles involved events that would have been noticed by a lot of people, like the dead walking out of their tombs in Jerusalem at Jesus’ death. And again, there was the time when he sun moved backwards for Hezekiah, and the a time when the sun stood still for Joshua. No one outside the bible recorded these events… why?
Why wouldn’t cultures who studied the sun and stars not record those solar events? Why wouldn’t anyone in Jerusalem find it noteworthy that dead people were walking around?
These miracle claims don’t bear out and don’t stand up to criticism.
And fulfilled prophecies? We keep going over this. What fulfilled prophecies? They’re all so vague and lacking in specific times or events that any events or eventualities could be said to “fulfill” them.
It’s like me foretelling that Baghdad will be ravaged and burned. It’s leader will be crucified and it’s inhabitants will be slaughtered.
1) Without a timeline, all I have to do is say that it hasn’t been fulfilled yet.
2) There’s a lot of unrest in Iraq right now and has been for a long time – it’s a safe guess that something will happen there.
3) Depending on what happens, my language will either be said to be figurative or literal or any combination – it all depends on what happens…
This isn’t miraculous, it’s a con.
What do you care what anyone believes anyways? You already believe that Jesus died for everyone and that there is nothing anyone can do to earn that free gift provided by god’s grace.
You are free to believe the claims of the bible, but you should know that you’re following only what men have told you.
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