So I’ve decided to bring the “Kathy” series to an end. However, we’ve had some fun in those threads when the conversation has gone off into interesting tangents, so I’d like to keep that part of it going for anyone who’s interested. These new threads will no longer focus on Kathy or the things we were discussing with her. So thanks for your time, Kathy! Take care.
There are no real rules for these threads. But to kick off the conversation, I’ll go back to the discussion on Paul that a few of us were having. Laurie views Deut 13 as a prophecy about Paul, so why don’t we take a quick look at it?
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. 9 But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11 And all Israel shall hear and fear and never again do any such wickedness as this among you.
12 “If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, 13 that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, 14 then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, 15 you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. 16 You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. It shall be a heap forever. It shall not be built again. 17 None of the devoted things shall stick to your hand, that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger and show you mercy and have compassion on you and multiply you, as he swore to your fathers, 18 if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, and doing what is right in the sight of the Lord your God.
I can see how one could apply this to Paul. However, I can also see how Jews could have applied it to Jesus as well, especially if he was claiming divinity for himself. And I’m sure this could have applied to lots of people during Israel’s history. Why should we think it’s pointing to Paul specifically, and why wouldn’t it also apply to Jesus?
Finding Truth 
I would always give my kids another go and doing things right, but every action still has consequences we live with. But yeah it would not matter what my kids did, I’d still be there for them. But my view is that God was there for us too in Christ.
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Ryan,
So you are somewhat of a universalist then and believe God is there for all of us and never gives up on us for eternity?
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Sorry, typing on my phone…about to run out of batteries.
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Ryan,
Truth? Where do you get your “truth” from, and your God’s decrees? Who made your brand of god, it’s truth and decrees the final authority?
Ever heard of cerebral automatism? It’s related to the learning process, and gives people the propensity to line up to majority opinion even when it contradicts evidence.
In 1951, Social Psychologist Solomon Asch did an experiment where he seated an individual (subject) in the middle of an assembly set up in a circular arc in front of a screen.
Asch projected two images. The first image showed an eight-inch-long line; in the second image, three lines — 6, 10, and 8 inches. Asch then asked each participant to show him which line of the three was the same length as that in the first image.
Asch set the experiment up with accomplices. All members of the assembly (the accomplices) deliberately chose the wrong line. In spite of the evidence that was right before the subjects own eyes, 75% of the cases rallied to group opinion, picking the wrong line.
Approximately 88 percent of the planets human population believe in their brand of god. Monkey see, monkey do?
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meant to write…
I would always give my kids another go, and another opportunity to do things right.
but every action still has consequences we live with.
But yeah it would not matter what my kids did, I’d still be there for them.
But my view is that God was there for us too in Christ.
Like the story of the Parable of the Prodigal Son,
rather than a angry man with a belt…I think God is like a father waiting for his children to come home,
Luke 15:11-32
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“But yeah it would not matter what my kids did, I’d still be there for them. But my view is that God was there for us too in Christ.”
Why did God wait so long to introduce “Christ” ? Where was Christ when God supposedly destroyed man with a flood ? Where was Christ when God ordered the Israelites to go village to village and destroy everyone except the young virgin girls which they could keep for themselves ? Where was God or Christ during the Crusades and the Inquisitions ? How about the Holocaust ? Hitler had a belt buckle made for all of his soldiers to wear which said, “Gott Mit Uns” Translation: God With Us
You are right about one thing. You and I would still be there for our kids no matter what they did…………
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Ryan,
So your view is that God always waits for his children to come home and never gives up on them even after they die? If that is your view do you see that consistent with the teachings about hell in the bible?
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My rejection of the bible and with the god it portrays has nothing to do with pride, but only with belief.
I don’t believe it. It doesn’t make sense to me. And since the bible is only a compilation of different men’s claims, it seems like devotion to this book requires faith in what those men said more that it does a faith in what they’re writing about (god).
Some people are convinced by kathy’s list of five “compelling” evidences, or by other things perhaps – I am not.
To say that lack of believe in the bible’s god is due to pride seems as silly to me saying that you dont believe in santa because of pride. what does pride have to do with belief or disbelief?
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Good morning and welcome, gliese! I’m arch, the resident wild card, class clown and part-time Notary Public, and I’ll leave you to figure out the rest of the cast of characters on your own.
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Hi Ruth,
I do think it depends on where we believe authority and truth to exist
Am I prideful because I don’t believe in the Allah of Islam?
Am I somehow prideful because I don’t eat pork since its not Halal?
well, perhaps to a Muslim. But for me? maybe, I don’t know
Say God exists,
If in my heart of hearts I understood God was true, yet continued to refuse to acknowledge it through my life, then I would be prideful.
And only we know this answer in regards to ourselves, if we are prepared to be honest with ourselves.
I can’t pretend I don’t believe in God.
God knows our hearts and why we do things. He knows where we are coming from.
So pride is more based on intent I think.
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“I want you to know that i am going hiking today” – good to know that if anyone ever tells you to take a hike, you won’t feel offended.
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Howie,
😦 I don’t know.
I believe He will treat everyone justly based on who they are intimately
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I think God interacts with people in different ways…because we are all different people.
Jesus to me, is manifestation of who God is.
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“jeeeezzzzzuuuuusss fukkin’ christ”
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Say God exists,
If in my heart of hearts I understood God was true, yet continued to refuse to acknowledge it through my life, then I would be prideful.
And only we know this answer in regards to ourselves, if we are prepared to be honest with ourselves.
Which God? Which decrees? How do you know which is authoritative? If, say, I believed there was a creator of all things that still doesn’t get me past the problem of believing I can know that creator or what he/she might expect of me or even if he/she expects anything at all of me. Does the fact that I have a conscience dictate that a God would expect anything more from me with regards to a relationship than a dog, or a cat, or a koala, or a blade of grass, or a tree? Why do we insist that this God necessarily wants a relationship with us? That just brings me back to the problem of hiddenness. If a God wants a relationship with us why rely on ancient text? That isn’t a relationship. A relationship is a two-way interaction which seems ultimately impossible with a deity that prefers to remain elusive. And if he/she prefers to remain elusive perhaps the reason is because he/she doesn’t want to be found. It seems to me that we, in our pride, have decided that a God should want to make itself known and have us live forever with him/her and so devised ways in which that is possible – and in the minds of some even probable.
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Ryan,
How do you know that this god treats everyone justly based on who they are intimately?
Have you tapped into some god frequency that gives you special insight or are you basing all of these assumptions on a book and traditions in your culture?
I was a Christian for 40 years and quite devout for 20 of those years. So I’m curious what makes you so assured about your assertions.
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by the way Ruth, I wasn’t meaning to sound condescending when I typed that,
I mean that literally. We only truly know what’s going on inside ourselves.
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I don’t, I’ve never seen God weigh anyone’s hearts. Its a trust that God is just.
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by the way Ruth, I wasn’t meaning to sound condescending when I typed that,
I mean that literally. We only truly know what’s going on inside ourselves.
I didn’t take it as condescending, Ryan. I’ve not seen you say anything at any point that would make me think you meant it as such. I understood perfectly what you meant and I agree.
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Ruth,
def can relate to those questions you have. I’ve spent most of my young adult life perplexed and beating my head against these kind of questions. But this is where I am.
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“I find it more prideful to boast that I have a knowledge that I simply do not have and may never have.” – I had no idea, Ruth, that you could wax so poetically,
well– beautifully said!LikeLike
Another question for me is how do I discern what is from God and what is from my hyperactive mind?
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But seriously Ruth to your question of pride,
I’m definitely prideful at times, believe it or not I am a bit of a narcissist …but I’m aware of it 🙂 first step to change is self awareness right?
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Aw, thanks, Arch. *blush*
I tend to write more conversationally in comments. I usually save up the more poetic musings for blog posts.
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Ryan, have I offended you with my questions directed at you several times?
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