So I’ve decided to bring the “Kathy” series to an end. However, we’ve had some fun in those threads when the conversation has gone off into interesting tangents, so I’d like to keep that part of it going for anyone who’s interested. These new threads will no longer focus on Kathy or the things we were discussing with her. So thanks for your time, Kathy! Take care.
There are no real rules for these threads. But to kick off the conversation, I’ll go back to the discussion on Paul that a few of us were having. Laurie views Deut 13 as a prophecy about Paul, so why don’t we take a quick look at it?
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. 9 But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11 And all Israel shall hear and fear and never again do any such wickedness as this among you.
12 “If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, 13 that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, 14 then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, 15 you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. 16 You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. It shall be a heap forever. It shall not be built again. 17 None of the devoted things shall stick to your hand, that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger and show you mercy and have compassion on you and multiply you, as he swore to your fathers, 18 if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, and doing what is right in the sight of the Lord your God.
I can see how one could apply this to Paul. However, I can also see how Jews could have applied it to Jesus as well, especially if he was claiming divinity for himself. And I’m sure this could have applied to lots of people during Israel’s history. Why should we think it’s pointing to Paul specifically, and why wouldn’t it also apply to Jesus?
Finding Truth 
We are created beings. The question is have we been created by an intelligent designer or have we been created by natural selection? To answer this we have to ask what have we been created and designed for? Survival? or something else?
Did an intelligent designer create all of the predators and prey with just enough speed or just enough camouflage or just enough (fill in the blank) so that all of those with “just enough” pass on their DNA and those without “just enough” starve or become somebody’s lunch?
What could the purpose be to create a world where so many species have to kill other species in order to survive? What was the purpose of dinosaurs? Either it’s survival of the fittest or someone upstairs gets a kick out of watching violent deaths.
I’m going to recommend an entry-level nova documentary on evolution that is not too boring and would be a good start to anyone just learning about evolution: Evolution – What Darwin Never Knew – NOVA PBS Documentary. I just watched this recently, it is well made and contains a good summary of a lot of different scientific fields. You can skip the historical parts about Darwin, I’ll never understand why he is given so much attention. It was a good idea, but anyone could have thought of it and many since have contributed to the theory.
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Question for anyone:
Some famous atheists have suggested policies to decrease indoctrination in society. This is by implementing very broad education on religions and ideas from a young age with the goal of exposing children to many ideas (including atheism).
My question is only partially related. Suppose you could create a new society, what policy or policies would you implement to reduce indoctrination and reduce extremism?
An example might be that once children reach a young age, say 3 years old, they leave their parent(s) to live in a societal institution and are raised by a community promoting freedom, education, and virtue. In theory, this solution would be a socioeconomic equalizer and could prevent child abuse. But, it would come at the cost of biological family bonds.
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@Dave
I know you were responding to someone else, but I thought I would mention that biological evolution is not necessarily inconsistent with a creator deity. If evolution proceeded by deterministic natural laws, then it was determined from the beginning. This means a creator deity can program the universe to evolve humanity.There are basically two schools of thought that think something like this happened. First, there is the ID community which takes heavy criticism for being God-of-the-gaps (and this criticism is not just from atheists!), then there is Theistic Evolution (i.e., Biologos) which say it was programmed from the beginning. Of course, we don’t know of a way to test any of these views, but I was hoping to just put it on the table that evolution does not rule out a creator deity.
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Brandon, I think you’ll find that Greta Christina has something different to say on that topic. .sorry, can’t do links.
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“You know it fits.” – and I’m PROUD of it – now let me get back to my mushroom soup and popcorn lunch!
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What, me worry?
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She’ll never watch it Dave, and she’ll counter with, “Who do you think you are to question the motives of god?”
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I doubt Kathy will watch it. She’s too fearful — suspicious that she’s going to be deceived by the devil through us heathens. who are the enemy of her god. After all, she’s been
brainwashedprogrammed to believe that “Satan is as a roaring lion, walking about, seeking whom he may devour.”Dave, thanks for the doc. I’m watching it now.
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…and a creator deity doesn’t rule out other creator deities or even suggest that the creator deity is all powerful, all knowing or all good.
The bible doesn’t necessarily rule out other religions or other gods… Especially if god can do anything and especially if we aren’t capable of understanding his ways, he very well may have created all religions, providing many paths to him. he reaches people where they are, not where men think they should be.
or maybe “what ifs” and “suppositions” can be applied anywhere in anyway, but still aren’t quite the same as real evidence and still don’t equate to probable scenarios.
so yes, an invisible creator could have created everything in a way that makes it look like it didn’t need an intelligent creator and in a way that was contrary to the way that god said it was created in his book. But is that plausible? I think if you take the book out, a creator or creators make more sense than trying to fit the observable world into that book.
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@ Brandon,
I agree with you that there could be Theistic Evolution. It is possible, but as I said earlier to Ryan, that doesn’t eliminate the problem of getting from that creator to a particular God. It doesn’t explain our insistence that we can know anything about this God or that this God even wants to be known. Perhaps it isn’t even a concern for this God . Perhaps this God just started the whole thing and just moved on? Why are you and others so certain that this God wants or expects anything of us?
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“sorry, can’t do links.”
Sorry, Carmen, I know too much about your mind to accept that. “I don’t know HOW to do links,” I could buy, but not “can’t.” If you haven’t time to learn how to turn a word or phrase into a link, that’s fine, but you can still just copy/paste it!
What would you say to one of your students who said, “Miss Carmen, I can’t do that –“
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@ carmen,
Links
If you’d like to insert a link to another page, you can do that too by using an “anchor” tag. But be careful — too many links and WordPress will think your comment is spam.
Google
If you insert 3 or more links WordPress automatically sends you to either spam or moderation.
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OK, here goes-
freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2014/09/23/four-reasons-god-made-evolution-happen-makes-no-sense/
Probably doesn’t work – I thought I had to do something else
– she says as she brushes bootprint off her arse. .
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@ carmen,
Well that worked like a charm! Do-over!
Links
If you’d like to insert a link to another page, you can do that too by using an “anchor” tag. But be careful — too many links and WordPress will think your comment is spam.
followed by Google
So you have whatever you want the text to say with a closed tag of
If you insert 3 or more links WordPress automatically sends you to either spam or moderation.
Just in case this still doesn’t work here’s the link to the page I’m getting it from:
https://findingtruth.wordpress.com/how-to-format-comments/
So, like arch said, you can always just copy the page link from the address bar and paste it right into your comment, but you do need to make sure it has the http:// in front of it.
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Love that quote, arch. It sums up my thoughts pretty well.
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Great quote, Arch. It reminded of this: The Impossible Game
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Here is the problem, I think, arch. There are some militant atheists who insist that they know there is no God, though there are not many of them. But it seems that atheism gets saddled with this level of certainty regardless of how weak or strong the atheism is.
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Ruth, totally agree: that doesn’t eliminate the problem of getting from that creator to a particular God.
That’s probably the biggie. Bible-believers are certain it’s their god. And, as Arch’s quote from Bertrand Russell indicates, who’s to say it isn’t one of several other gods?
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I’ve tried the cutting and pasting – I can do it in an email but can’t seem to make it work on a blog or on FB
Here’s my second go-round –
Now that I’ve probably made an idiot of myself I’ll sign up for a public flogging. .. 🙂
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I give up.
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Carmen,
Your link worked the first time. Since it didn’t have the http:// in front of it you have to copy the link and paste it into the address bar, but you can get there from here. 😀
I give up, too. None of what I tried to type came out right. But if you follow that last link to “how to format comments” it explains a lot of different variations of commenting nuances.
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“Atheism is a refusal to play an impossible game.” – I like that.
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Thanks Ruth! Going to do things I CAN do – like unload the dishwasher, clean the kitchen, make the bed. . . darn maid didn’t show up again today! 🙂
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darn maid didn’t show up again today!
I think mine died.
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