So I’ve decided to bring the “Kathy” series to an end. However, we’ve had some fun in those threads when the conversation has gone off into interesting tangents, so I’d like to keep that part of it going for anyone who’s interested. These new threads will no longer focus on Kathy or the things we were discussing with her. So thanks for your time, Kathy! Take care.
There are no real rules for these threads. But to kick off the conversation, I’ll go back to the discussion on Paul that a few of us were having. Laurie views Deut 13 as a prophecy about Paul, so why don’t we take a quick look at it?
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. 9 But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11 And all Israel shall hear and fear and never again do any such wickedness as this among you.
12 “If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, 13 that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, 14 then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, 15 you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. 16 You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. It shall be a heap forever. It shall not be built again. 17 None of the devoted things shall stick to your hand, that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger and show you mercy and have compassion on you and multiply you, as he swore to your fathers, 18 if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, and doing what is right in the sight of the Lord your God.
I can see how one could apply this to Paul. However, I can also see how Jews could have applied it to Jesus as well, especially if he was claiming divinity for himself. And I’m sure this could have applied to lots of people during Israel’s history. Why should we think it’s pointing to Paul specifically, and why wouldn’t it also apply to Jesus?
Finding Truth 
Hows everyone’s night going? Here’s my view from the afternoon…
hence the relevance 🙂
have a good night
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“There could be a God even though I don’t find that very likely.” – If I were going to argue with someone, Ruth, I would much rather it was Kathy, than you – you’re too nice.
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Got on to see what I missed while I was gone, but it is way more than I can stay awake to read!
Have a good night!
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“We are all star stuff”… aka star DUST.. funny how Neil avoided using
the word “dust”.. wonder why..
“7 Then the Lord God formed a man[c] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.”
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Neuro,
“I and others posted a lot of information, but you refused to read the links because you accused (and judged) me and others of liberal bias, and the data as well. You refused to open your mind to science, period. ”
This is not true.. I refused to read entire BOOKS.. because no one would give me examples so I could have SOME confidence that there was objectivity. You twist the facts concerning me in every comment you make. This is the problem.. again, there’s no objectivity and honesty. And no progress can be made without it.
I LIKE science.. I’ve made no comments here to the contrary, but you make judgments about ME based on your overall (and incorrect) view of believers in general. It’s ridiculous and a waste of time.
” My advise to you is get back to living. Haven’t you died enough? That’s what your belief system wants. You belong to a death cult and misery seems to love company. Those of us who have painstakingly deprogrammed ourselves, acutely know how manipulative and controlling your belief system is. ”
What are you talking about?? What “death” in Christianity are you referring to?? What “manipulation” and “control”?? Spell it out Neuro.. I’m so tired of these ignorant claims.. ignorant because you all can never back them up… they are nothing but baseless assumptions.. pure bias and no rational facts.
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“Those who reject as much educational material as you have, and believes that using the threat of hell and death in order to gain love, loyalty and obedience is being a good parent, has had neural circuity deactivated in their frontal lobes (executive functioning), and are, IMO, enslaved by the older (fear and reward driven) parts of their brain.”
What “educational material” Neuro?? What specifically are you referring to? It’s not me.. it’s you. I’ve asked you DIRECT questions and you don’t answer them.. so why the heck would I want to read your leftist propaganda?? No one here has followed through with my points.. yet you condemn me for not reading all your recommendations that are written by OTHERS. You all can’t debate in your own words, you can’t follow through with any of my points.. like which religion has the most evidence to back up it’s truth.. and then you have the nerve to give me these pathetic rants about my “shortcomings” like not wanting to read about science.. claims you can’t even back up.
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And here’s another thing you all don’t get.. while God is our “Father”.. He is not our “parent”.
There are some fundamental DIFFERENCES between our Creator and our human parents.
But you all gladly make the comparison as if it’s the very same because you think it supports your chosen view.
You make the judgment against God that He is “threatening” you / forcing you to love Him.. completely ignoring AGAIN, the ENTIRE New Testament. But oh, yeah, you did point to Revelations before.. while continuing to ignore what MOST of the NT is about.
And yet again judging God for using HIS sovereign RIGHT to judge. He’s the Creator.. He has the right to judge those who don’t obey Him.. whether you like it or not.
God gave His Son for us. He wouldn’t have done that if it weren’t necessary. You all don’t understand this because you don’t WANT to understand. It’s much easier to say things like.. “He caused that Himself.. why can’t He just forgive us..”.. complete ignorance of Who the Creator of all is.. the idea that He might be more complicated than you (in all your “wisdom”) assume is just not a possibility… pfff why even think something so silly??
It’s much easier to judge God by focusing on all those things you don’t even try to understand and ignoring all the GOOD that He’s done for YOU.
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Howie,
“The weird thing though is that it seems that the more fundamentalist Christians, who are the ones claiming others are prideful, are the ones who are very sure that their own conclusions and worldview are correct. They know for sure that their conclusion that the entire bible is inerrant is correct, and not only that they know that their interpretations of many of the things inside of it are correct. Somehow this very extreme level of confidence in their own abilities is exempt from the label of pride.”
Howie, I “know” what I believe. I’ve shared my beliefs here on this blog, and I’ve given my reasons for those beliefs. I’m more than willing.. more like BEGGING for honest debate about these things and no one wants to take up the challenge.. but all are more than willing to judge me for my beliefs, making things up as they go. And turning what I want and hope will be a debate into a childish back and forth that’s never about THE points I, again, desire to debate.
Your comment seems sincere.. like you truly want to know the answers.. so I’ll give it a try yet again.. what is your primary reason for not believing that God exists?
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Gliese,
“I know that I am small and insignificant, but I am part of all of life, all matter and space. I’ve got the gift, or the curse, of consciousness. Because I am an atheist, this does not involve any particular deity, but the universe within which life arose. Do you still claim I am prideful because I won’t humble myself before YOUR god? ”
Gliese, when I make the claim of pride it’s based on the stated beliefs (their words) of those I’m accusing.
All know about you is that you don’t believe in a Supreme Being it seems.. and of course not the God of the Bible.
So, I would ask you also, what is your primary reason for your belief/ non belief?
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“We are all star stuff”… aka star DUST.. funny how Neil avoided using
the word “dust”.. wonder why..
“7 Then the Lord God formed a man[c] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.”
Wait what?
You are exhibiting next level of crazy here man if you think the 2 sentences that you said are related.
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” I find it more prideful to boast that I have a knowledge that I simply do not have and may never have.” – Ruth
Besides, why would you argue with me, arch? You know I’m right. 😉
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Kathy,
Fair enough. I was raised in an atheist household. when I grew up, I investigated religion in general, including Christianity, and found it made more sense to not believe. I know I could go through certain steps that would almost inevitably lead to me having faith, but that has little relationship to what gods may or may not exist. Faith, religions, and deities are, from my outsider point of view, all equally man-made and arbitrary.
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gliese, “. .. religions and deities. . . are all equally man-made and arbitrary.” Almost everyone on this thread endorses that view. Convincing a few on here, however, has become a habit some of us just can’t break. (Five threads worth!) Welcome to the hamster wheel! 🙂
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gliese,
but we have a somewhat accurate and consistent book, written by people who said they speaking for god, that tell us god made everything and wanted to make a rule where he’d have to sacrifice his son, who looked like a man, in order to save all of mankind – except that he’d only save some of them, while torturing others in eternal fire.
What could make more sense than that?
I mean, what’s not to believe?
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“7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.” – Yeah, that really happened, and it was witnessed by – who again, Kathy –?
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“…there’s no objectivity and honesty. And no progress can be made without it.” – you’re incapable of progress, Kathy – seek help, there are free clinics out there for people on welfare.
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@powellpowers
I can understand the problem with this. You probably know all of this already, but I thought I would just opine for a minute. Null hypothesis is actually a term from science when trying to make a statistical inference. It’s just assuming that there is no effect until one is proven by some arbitrary statistical standard (p < 0.05 usually). It means the default assumption is there is no effect. So, applied to the question of God, atheists have argued that the default assumption should be atheism. But, you are right, what kind of justification is there for this? Theists these days tend to argue that the default assumption should be neutrality of belief until you have reason to either believe or disbelieve.
Actually, there are some justifications for how to frame the debate. For example, in US law the default assumption is innocence, and the justification is that we would rather have some true criminals go free (false negative) than some true innocents be punished (false positive). It’s a matter of what we value. And, another example in medicine, if a 45 year old walks into an ER with chest pain, they are by default assumed to have a heart attack and treated as such until various tests can prove otherwise. The justification here is that we would rather treat all possible heart attacks rather than risk some of them slipping by us even if it costs more money. Again, it’s a matter of what we value.
I think however you decide to frame the debate will be up to you and probably be based on what you value regarding that question. Do you want to avoid a false negative? Do you want to avoid a false positive? Maybe avoiding both is ideal?
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Ruth, sorry WP ate your post! I guess I mean a best case scenario like your spouse or best friend witnesses a miracle and thinks it was from God, would something like that ever even possibly be sufficient for you? I know it’s hard to tell in reality unless it actually happens.
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Study: Internet Trolls
I kept up with all 5 of Nate’s Kathy posts, and those posts appeared to turn into argumentative chaos when Kathy was involved. The following are comments Kathy posted to most everyone here who is not a Christian: These comments come from just the first half of Kathy Part 2, the one I was most active in — but the same behavioral pattern and words are used in all the posts she’s participated in here, and the pattern continues in this post as well.
——————
Kathy: This entire comment by you, William, was a joke. You, just like Ruth and Arch and Nate have resorted to dishonesty and childishness in trying to defend your failed beliefs. You all are a complete waste of time.
Kathy: That’s ridiculous but whatever you need to do to protect your ego.
Kathy: Yes I can.. but why would I avoid the truth? So you all can feel better? Sorry, not interested in coddling your sad pride and egos.
Kathy: If I believed Nate or any of you were truly applying objectivity, I’d have an entirely different tone.. but it’s the fundamental dishonesty that is motivating me to be so blunt. And it’s not because of how you all were brought up or your personal experiences or life stories etc.. it can ONLY, ULTIMATELY be attributed to pride and ego. If I could help you all see this, what an accomplishment that would be! Because, again, pride really IS destructive… “it always comes before a fall”… and losing your eternal soul IS the ULTIMATE “fall”.
Kathy: Nate, I’ve gotten to know all of you by your own words. And my conclusion is that you all are motivated by pride and ego.
Kathy: See?!?! You just proved me right.. again! With knowledge there is incredible arrogance and pride.
Kathy: This is exactly why I make my accusations of lack of objectivity.. because you LACK OBJECTIVTY.. based on your very own words. And your very own words also clearly show WHY you lack objectivity… pride and ego.
Kathy: Nate.. have you not noticed the word “pride” that I’ve typed probably a hundred times in your blog?THIS IS WHY I believe liberals have the views that they do. Prove me wrong. I WOULD like to believe it’s not pride.. but you all have only confirmed that belief with every comment you make.
——————-
Kathy admits in the first half of Kathy Part 2 that she’s applied the word “pride” on us at least 100 times and it continues. That doesn’t even include the terms arrogance and ego also used over and over. I initially gave her the benefit of the doubt. I am questing Kathy’s motives here.
The Troll study further states:
I choose to no longer participate in dialog with Kathy.
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“God gave His Son for us. He wouldn’t have done that if it weren’t necessary.”
As John Zande has said many times , “He sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself”
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“It’s much easier to judge God by focusing on all those things you don’t even try to understand and ignoring all the GOOD that He’s done for YOU.”
What would your life be like, Kathy, if all religion were removed from it? Do you have ANYthing else going on in it? Or would it be a hollow, empty shell? You’re going to reach the end of your life and realize that you’ve really never lived.
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kcchief1 – that reminds me of a joke. I might have told it before on here (I can’t remember what was said at the beginning of THIS thread, let alone all five!!)
Jesus calls God up on the telephone –
“Hey God! It’s me – YOU!!”
. .. and Victoria, you’re onto something. . and to think I used to PLAY with trolls. . . .egads.
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“God gave His Son for us. He wouldn’t have done that if it weren’t necessary.”
As John Zande has said many times , “He sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself”
and it is only necessary, because god made it a necessity. if he has all the power, why set it that way unless you want it that way?
If god “had” to do it that way, then who made those rules that god must follow?
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“No one here has followed through with my points.. yet you condemn me for not reading all your recommendations that are written by OTHERS.”
And yet you continually throw the Bible at us, which was written by OTHERS.
So why do you stay, Kathy, if we do all of those terrible things to you? Could it be that we’re the closest thing to a social life you have?
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I choose to no longer participate in dialog with Kathy.
Whether Kathy fits the official definition of an Internet Troll or not, after K1-5 I decided not to actively engage in dialogue with her. It’s a fruitless endeavor because the only items she accepts as evidence are those things which a) confirm her bias and b) agree with scripture. Anything else is deemed liberal propaganda. I’ve seen her, in this very dialogue, claim that absence of evidence is not very compelling evidence. Yet, at the same time, claim that absence of scientific evidence of the mechanism of evolution is very compelling evidence that…God. Science doesn’t get a raincheck but goddidit does?
If I learned nothing else from my exchanges with Kathy and He-who-shall-remain-nameless it is an appreciation for civil dialogue with Christians like Brandon and Ryan. While we may not agree on everything we can discuss things rationally, without attacking each others’ character and integrity.
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