So I’ve decided to bring the “Kathy” series to an end. However, we’ve had some fun in those threads when the conversation has gone off into interesting tangents, so I’d like to keep that part of it going for anyone who’s interested. These new threads will no longer focus on Kathy or the things we were discussing with her. So thanks for your time, Kathy! Take care.
There are no real rules for these threads. But to kick off the conversation, I’ll go back to the discussion on Paul that a few of us were having. Laurie views Deut 13 as a prophecy about Paul, so why don’t we take a quick look at it?
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. 9 But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11 And all Israel shall hear and fear and never again do any such wickedness as this among you.
12 “If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, 13 that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, 14 then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, 15 you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. 16 You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. It shall be a heap forever. It shall not be built again. 17 None of the devoted things shall stick to your hand, that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger and show you mercy and have compassion on you and multiply you, as he swore to your fathers, 18 if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, and doing what is right in the sight of the Lord your God.
I can see how one could apply this to Paul. However, I can also see how Jews could have applied it to Jesus as well, especially if he was claiming divinity for himself. And I’m sure this could have applied to lots of people during Israel’s history. Why should we think it’s pointing to Paul specifically, and why wouldn’t it also apply to Jesus?
Finding Truth 
Neuro, kathy is definitely a troll, whether intentional or unintentional.
many times I had thought about never addressing her any further, buT i continue. I suppose I do because it’s often entertaining and then also, not for her sake, but so that her nonsense wont be the last thing other people read here, or that maybe the silent onlookers dont get the idea that those dimwitted responses have stumped anyone here…
But i do suppose at this point that it’s painfully obvious, so is there any more point? Ironically, even if left unchallenged, kathy does far more to discredit christianity that any of us could hope to do. It’s almost sad watching it.
i know that sounds like a jerk thing to say, but just look at it – it’s true.
LikeLike
@ Brandon,
I guess I mean a best case scenario like your spouse or best friend witnesses a miracle and thinks it was from God, would something like that ever even possibly be sufficient for you? I know it’s hard to tell in reality unless it actually happens.
Okay, I thought this was probably what you meant. The honest answer to that is no. That would not be enough to convert me. Even if I ‘witnessed a miracle’ it would likely not sway me. I’ve yet to hear about or witness any miracle that does not have a natural explanation. We hear about these grand miracles on occasion only to find out they have natural explanations, even if the event is rare.
Having said all that, when I was a Christian I did find testimony persuasive and compelling. The thought that God healed someone, or took their desire for drugs away, or any number of other seemingly miraculous wonders is excellent confirmation bias. But having lived enough of life, having experiences of my own, I realize that God isn’t a necessary component to any of that. In fact, in some instances, belief can be a hindrance. When overcoming addiction one just swaps one addiction for another it isn’t a healthy scenario. If introspection and getting down to the root of whatever the problem is isn’t part of the solution it’s not likely to be long-term. And some people – not all – forgo proper medical care in the misguided belief that it is God and not medicine that heals. *shrug*
LikeLike
Thanks William, Ruth and Carmen for your comments. I do think a good amount of educational information came from the discussion on all five posts. I remember how I got programmed by Christian fundamentalism, so a part of me was sympathetic and empathic towards Kathy. I just don’t know what to make of her — is she brainwashed by fundamentalism, hyper-religious, or a troll? Based on all 5 posts, plus this one, I’m leaning towards the later. It is, indeed, fruitless to continue having discourse with her.
LikeLike
“Howie, I ‘know’ what I believe.”
“And turning what I want and hope will be a debate into a childish back and forth that’s never about THE points I, again, desire to debate.”
You’re forgetting, Kathy – you don’t know how to debate, and you insist on proving that over and over.
“what is your primary reason for not believing that God exists?”
There is no evidence that a god exists, and even less, that YOUR god exists. All that aside, I CLAIM that no god exists, and in the now-famous words of that profound philosopher:
LikeLiked by 1 person
“When overcoming addiction one just swaps one addiction for another it isn’t a healthy scenario. If introspection and getting down to the root of whatever the problem is isn’t part of the solution it’s not likely to be long-term. And some people – not all – forgo proper medical care in the misguided belief that it is God and not medicine that heals.”
Well said, Ruth.
LikeLike
Ruth,
What would convince you that God is real?
Kathy,
What would convince you to not believe in God?
LikeLike
“Welcome to the hamster wheel! 🙂” – or, as Kurt Vonnegut once said, “Welcome To the Monkey House” —
LikeLike
Ryan,
I’m going to copy and paste something I said to Brandon yesterday.
Earlier you asked if belief in revelation also would require a miracle for me to believe it. I wouldn’t necessarily say so. The universe is guided by a set of natural laws. Assuming that a creator set up those laws he could interact with his creation in ways that would not require a miracle. He could communicate with us audibly. He could walk with us in the cool of the day and not break any natural law that we currently understand to do so.
Now, I don’t mean for him to just communicate with me audibly, nor to just walk with me in the cool of the day. I mean with us as his creations. I mean all of us. Or at least most of us. If it were just me seeing or hearing him I’d likely think I was bonkers. But if God made his presence clearly known, both visually and and audibly to the people he supposedly created that would be pretty convincing to me. That wouldn’t necessitate a miracle, nor would it break any currently known laws of nature. It’s pretty simple, really. Seeing is believing.
LikeLike
If I could experience the kinds of miracles talked about in the Bible, I think I would be convinced.
Elijah calls down fire from Heaven, and it consumes everything on the altar, even the altar itself and all the water in the trench around it. Pretty impressive. Seeing Jesus walk on water in the middle of a sea would be amazing. Seeing someone brought back to life, witnessing someone’s withered limbs completely restored, etc. I think I would be convinced by those kinds of miracles.
Of course, no one does miracles like that today. They’re often unseen ailments that are very dubious to begin with. And honestly, I think most people would be compelled by miracles of that nature. That’s why I think the gospels’ claims that some people witnessed the miracles but weren’t convinced is just evidence that the miracles weren’t actually as impressive as they were made out to be.
LikeLike
Carmen – did that joke look anything like this?
LikeLike
If I could experience the kinds of miracles talked about in the Bible, I think I would be convinced.
Elijah calls down fire from Heaven, and it consumes everything on the altar, even the altar itself and all the water in the trench around it. Pretty impressive. Seeing Jesus walk on water in the middle of a sea would be amazing. Seeing someone brought back to life, witnessing someone’s withered limbs completely restored, etc. I think I would be convinced by those kinds of miracles.
Oh, I completely agree, Nate. Though I would not necessarily require a miracle to believe, these types of miracles – with multitudes seeing them as well – would be convincing. Don’t get me wrong, though, if I was the only one (or only one of a few) I might have to question what I actually saw. Or, as in the case of Ellijah calling down fire, some physical evidence of the event that I just witnessed.
LikeLike
You know, having a belief in God is not difficult. It’s not like skeptics are putting up some unreasonable obstacles to belief.
This may sound strange, but just think about a giraffe for a second. That’s probably one of the unlikeliest creatures you could imagine. It has spots like a leopard, a face like a camel’s, a neck like a snake’s, and horns. If you told someone about a giraffe without them ever having seen one, it’s easy to see how they might not believe it. But all you have to do to overcome that disbelief is go to a zoo.
The reason some of us have problems believing in God is not because we’re being unreasonable, but simply because he’s so completely hidden. We don’t even have experience with beings like him. If he made himself known, I have no doubt that virtually all skeptics would accept his existence.
LikeLike
Oh, I completely agree
LikeLike
See, Kathy – Portal, a theist and presumably a Christian, is not afraid to examine both sides of the coin – where does the fear come from that prevents you from doing that?
LikeLike
If Yahweh suddenly showed up and performed these “miracles”, I may no longer be a skeptic, but that doesn’t mean I’d suddenly fall to my knees and worship this god. Y would still have a lot of explaining to do before I would “submit” and give my allegiance, e.g., does the bible accurately depict Y’s character. If your parents give you life, but abused you, psychologically and/or physically, do you owe them your loyalty and respect?
In other words, just because there might be a creator doesn’t mean we owe it respect simply because it created us.
LikeLike
“Or, as in the case of Ellijah calling down fire” – I’ve always wondered if the Bronze Age Canaanites, from a distance, could tell the difference between water and kerosene —
LikeLike
Ryan, I’m not Ruth, but I hope you won’t mind me answering your question.
At this point in my life, I’m not sure that anything would convince me of (the bible) God’s existence. I just can’t bring myself to envision a supernatural being that exists somewhere “out there” as being a viable entity. A miracle might make me think twice, but the evidence behind it would have to be pretty overwhelming.
I do tend to feel there is a “presence” in the universe, but it’s most definitely not a “god.” I don’t pray to it, I don’t worship it, I don’t “defend” it, I don’t expect it to grant me eternal life.
I guess the closest thing that explains my spiritual perspective is Scientific Pantheism, which is reverence of nature and the cosmos.
LikeLike
Well, yes. I think this is a point that’s been missed. Ryan’s question was what would it take for me to believe. So belief and adoration are two completely different things.
LikeLike
And it might be pointed out that the creation doesn’t have the right to question the creator. Who are we to question the almighty? But with the propaganda that’s been floated about any kind of creator, one would think that a few questions could be expected.
LikeLike
William, you left out one important element at the end, which George Carlin would be only too happy to supply for you:
“Religion has actually convinced people that there`s an invisible man — living in the sky — who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do..And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever, `til the end of time! …But He loves you!”
— George Carlin —
LikeLike
“And it might be pointed out that the creation doesn’t have the right to question the creator.”
Yep, and like I would tell my parents, I didn’t ask to be be born. You did me no favors.
LikeLike
Ryan,
I know several people who think this question is irrelevant and I actually see their point and don’t judge them for it, but for me personally this is a very important question. If gods who are interested in humans exist then I for sure want to know that, so I want to make sure I have the proper epistemology in place to form the correct conclusion.
My answer is a mix of Nate and Ruth’s answers – what they have written is perfectly aligned with my own views. If gods talked and walked with us all together and showed us all miracles that were capable of being examined to be genuine then I would be a believer. Given “I Kings 18” which Nate references a lot I see no reason why Christians should protest saying that their god should not be tested.
I also think just like any other belief it should be along a continuum of confidence levels. All other beliefs are accepted this way, I see no reason to disqualify the “do gods exist” question from that.
There is also an important thing here regarding the traditional monotheistic conception of “God” with the capital G. This concept is that there exists a God that is all powerful, all knowing, all loving, and desires a relationship with all of his creation. Some believers modify some of those attributes but for the most part that is consistent with a lot of what they believe, and when they do modify it, it looks like they do that just to get out of the sticky problem of hiddenness. So given assumptions of attributes like this we can do some reasoning:
1) all knowing – he knows exactly what it would take to make us know that he exists at the same level of confidence that we know our friends and family exist.
2) all powerful – he is capable of doing whatever is required from what he knows of #1 so that the person knows he exists.
3) Nothing of 1 and 2 violates free-will. The person would know with very high confidence that he exists and would still be able to reject him.
4) He is all loving and desires a relationship with all of his creation – if this is the case then he would do #2.
5) If he has some loving reasons which we cannot understand for not doing #2 at the very least he wouldn’t punish us for doubting given that he is withholding actions that could convince us.
That is why I have strong doubts about the traditional monotheistic concept of God. Some retort that every human really knows that this Christian God exists. Ryan, I don’t think you believe that, so I see no reason to respond to that.
How do you resolve the problem of hiddenness and the claim that there exists a God that has those attributes?
LikeLike
…but he loves you.
Arch, that reminded me: I watched a series of videos a while back made by an ex-Christian as he shared his moving experiences as a Christian and his deconversion journey .Ron brought the video to my attention again on my blog, and here is an excerpt from the video series, part 6. I think that many if not most of us who were once devout believers can relate. It helps to explain how we got so deep in belief.
My point is — in order to be a Christian, according to the Bible, you have to accept that you are deserving of hell unless you accept Jesus Christ as lord and savior — and you must “die to yourself”.
If they can get you while you’re young (which they usually do) before your frontal lobes have fully developed, then it can very difficult to break away, especially if you live in a culture that reinforces this. The frontal lobes (critical thinking) aren’t fully developed until age 25 to 30.
LikeLike
Humorist Will Rogers, upon seeing a giraffe for the first time: “There just ain’t no sech animal!“
LikeLike
Howie, I suggest Richard Friedman’s “The Hidden Face of God” —
LikeLike