So I’ve decided to bring the “Kathy” series to an end. However, we’ve had some fun in those threads when the conversation has gone off into interesting tangents, so I’d like to keep that part of it going for anyone who’s interested. These new threads will no longer focus on Kathy or the things we were discussing with her. So thanks for your time, Kathy! Take care.
There are no real rules for these threads. But to kick off the conversation, I’ll go back to the discussion on Paul that a few of us were having. Laurie views Deut 13 as a prophecy about Paul, so why don’t we take a quick look at it?
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. 9 But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11 And all Israel shall hear and fear and never again do any such wickedness as this among you.
12 “If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, 13 that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, 14 then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, 15 you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. 16 You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. It shall be a heap forever. It shall not be built again. 17 None of the devoted things shall stick to your hand, that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger and show you mercy and have compassion on you and multiply you, as he swore to your fathers, 18 if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, and doing what is right in the sight of the Lord your God.
I can see how one could apply this to Paul. However, I can also see how Jews could have applied it to Jesus as well, especially if he was claiming divinity for himself. And I’m sure this could have applied to lots of people during Israel’s history. Why should we think it’s pointing to Paul specifically, and why wouldn’t it also apply to Jesus?
Finding Truth 
“Maybe just some bad pork? 😉”
LikeLike
Howie, Nan, I get what you are saying. Howie, I, too, have given this a lot of thought and it has taken up many, many hours of my time in research. A huge chunk of the human population is affected and influenced by the Abrahamic god. As of the early 21st century, approximately 54% of the world’s population considered themselves adherents of the Abrahamic religions. 30% were of other religions, and 16% of no organized religion.
Sources: “Major Religions of the World Ranked by Number of Adherents” and “Worldwide Adherents of All Religions by Six Continental Areas”
When discussing the possibility of god or a creator with people who say they know that they know that they know — it seems they never take into consideration variables in our environment and their own brain signatures that can give them the sense that there is a god or a ghost, spirit, or what have you. Studies show that the lower your temporal lobe threshold is the greater likelihood of having a sensed presence or other experiences.
That means, for example, that if you were delivered by forceps your threshold could be lowered; but there are many other ways this threshold can be lowered. Childhood trauma or adult trauma, child abuse, toxic stress, illness, disease, alcohol and drug abuse, oxygen deprivation, malnutrition, brain injuries, high fevers, neurological disorders, forceps deliveries, meditation and kundalini practices, etc.
Behavioral neuroscientist, Todd Murphy writes:
“The part of the brain that manages our states of consciousness, the temporal lobes, is a little busier in these people than most, producing personality traits that appear over and over among spiritually oriented people.
Our states of consciousness are managed in the temporal lobes of our brains. The temporal lobes do all sorts of things including language, long-term memory storage, emotional reactions, perceiving spatial relationships, and music. Smells are interpreted here, as well as patterns, whether these are patterns in time or in space.”
I had, for most of my life, a spiritually oriented personality, but I’m fully aware, through my own studies, that our brains are good at fooling us. Add to the mix our susceptibility of being indoctrinated, and our need/desire to belong and feel connected.
Personally, I think that the only way to know if there is a creator is for this creator to show itself to the whole world, and then there would be no question. If such a creator existed, and because so many seem to have questions, you’d think that an all-knowing creator would make this known to everyone, not just those with lower TL thresholds. Until that time comes, if it should come, I’m not going to trust my own senses, religious books or religious opinions of others.
LikeLike
“Or does she read the same news reports as everyone else and makes her own evaluations/assumptions? ”
I’m reasonably certain she doesn’t read the same news reports as everyone else, her sources are more likely along the lines of Faux News and Rush Limbaugh.
LikeLike
Just saw this in one of the comments for the article that Arch referenced (If Jesus Never Existed …):
Arrogance is assuming a god listens to your prayers, as if you’re important to some almighty creator of the universe. (emphasis mine)
LikeLike
Howie, that makes sense and I agree with you. This presents an overwhelming problem for some fundamentalist doctrine.
LikeLike
@N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ
Victoria, are you saying that your brain is naturally inclined towards spiritual belief(s) and you are actively suppressing it? If so, why?
LikeLike
Neuro should be particularly interested in Sri Kumare.
Arch, both Professor Taboo and Howie recommended this to me a while back. Haven’t gotten around to watching it yet, but have seen the trailer. TIME also did a short clip, interview.
“American filmmaker Vikram Gandhi made up a guru character and a phony religion, then filmed a documentary as he developed a following. The result raises questions about belief and self”
I look forward to watching it.
LikeLike
“Victoria, are you saying that your brain is naturally inclined towards spiritual belief(s) and you are actively suppressing it? If so, why?”
No Brandon, I’m saying that our brain is inclined to dupe us, and heavily influenced by our culture. 😉
LikeLike
“Kathy, answer Portal’s question: What would convince you to not believe in God? He’s a believer so you can’t accuse him of his pride, ego, liberal-thinking, etc. So answer his question.”
What would convince me that God doesn’t exist would be proof of another explanation for our existence.
And Portal’s question doesn’t indicate pride, ego or liberal thinking.
LikeLike
Victoria,
I don’t disagree with you, but I’m wondering what is your reason to think that this function of the brain leads to false belief, whereas other functions do not. I mean how do you draw the line to say that your proprioception or color vision produces true beliefs and your spiritual sense produces false beliefs?
LikeLike
gliese2475
“Kathy,
Fair enough. I was raised in an atheist household. when I grew up, I investigated religion in general, including Christianity, and found it made more sense to not believe. I know I could go through certain steps that would almost inevitably lead to me having faith, but that has little relationship to what gods may or may not exist. Faith, religions, and deities are, from my outsider point of view, all equally man-made and arbitrary.”
Ok.. so now I would ask *why* it makes more sense to you to not believe. Then after you answered, I would point out the arguments for why I believe you’re wrong. And, ideally, we’d continue to debate until we could come to an agreement (or at least until we’ve both run out of questions).. But, with liberals/ atheists/ lefties/ ? it never reaches that point.. they always eventually end up personally attacking me, pointing out *my* faults and then ending the debate. Always with my questions never getting answers. And THAT is when I accuse them of pride and ego issues. I find that people who choose to not believe in God, CANNOT defend their views to the end… yet they STILL hold onto their beliefs. If that’s not pride.. what is it??
LikeLike
John Zande also recommended this free download book titled , “God’s Debris” in one of his posts to a Christian he was engaging. I read the book today and it was quite enlightening . It really hits home to Christians and Skeptics alike. It’s only 130 pages. I would love to get feedback from others here. I hope someone takes the time to read it. It really explains why people are religious and why others are skeptics.
LikeLike
Carmen, nice joke ! 🙂
LikeLike
Free download to the book, “God’s Debris” http://nowscape.com/godsdebris.pdf
Sorry I forgot to include it in previous comment.
LikeLike
kcchief1 – I’m about 30 pages into “God’s Debris”, even though the author said I probably wouldn’t like it (that over-55 thingy) — I do, so far. The bonus is that it’s large print! 🙂
LikeLike
“I mean how do you draw the line to say that your proprioception or color vision produces true beliefs and your spiritual sense produces false beliefs?”
Brandon, unless someone is color blind or experiences some type of damage in the eye or visual areas of the brain, I would think that everyone sees the same color. But if you, me or others have a “spiritual” type experience, and we live in a cultures that have been heavily influenced by religion, we should taken into consideration that there are many possible causes for this experience, and do a process of elimination. Even still, I would question if I had a “god” type experience because there is still a lot we don’t know about the brain and the environments influences on it.
For example, between April 1968 and May 1971 hundreds of thousands of people reported seeing apparitions of the Virgin Mary over a Coptic Orthodox church in Zeitoun, near Cairo, Egypt. But when they were photographed they were irregular blobs and flashes of light that can be produced during seismic activity.
What the scientists who investigated this phenomena found while interviewing the people who saw these “visions” was that their details usually reflected the religious background. The luminous phenomena in Zeitoun increased during the month of or the month before an increase in regional seismic activity.
So, someone sees a blog of light over a church steeple and because of their religious background, think it’s the Virgin Mary — then tells other people who believe in the Virgin Mary, and then you have mass hysteria.
LikeLike
Carmen, I just turned 60 and shouldn’t like it either. I very much enjoyed it ! Very eye opening and thought provoking !
I will wait with bated breath to read your take on it . 🙂
LikeLike
Is there a question in there somewhere for gliese, or was that just another excuse to rant?
LikeLike
Ken, thanks for the book link. I plan to read it. I LOL’d at this part:
“The target audience for God’s Debris is people who enjoy having their brains spun around inside their skulls.”
LikeLike
Ken, I’ve started the book. Looks interesting thus far. I’d forgotten where I got the link — must have been John’s site. I’m going to try and get back to it now that you’re mentioned it. 🙂
Victoria, I’m sure the same reasoning holds true for those who have NDEs and report they saw Jesus, shimmering beings, family members who had passed on, and miscellaneous other “heavenly” visions. I don’t recall now where I saw it, but I once came across an article by a non-believer who had an NDE and she described her experience much differently.
LikeLike
There’s an interesting article on NDE here: http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2012-10/fyi-what-causes-near-death-experiences
LikeLike
Nan, thanks for the link. I have done a good bit of research on NDE’s. I find it interesting that they differ greatly from East to West. Asians who were studied in Thailand, for example, never see Jesus, or experience your typical Christian NDE, unless, of course, missionaries have indoctrinated them. Several studies (Pasricha, 1986, Schorer, 1985-86) & Kellehear, 1993) demonstrate that the phenomenologies of NDEs is culture-bound.
LikeLike
Nan, the article you link states:
“(The closest we’ve gotten to a reasonable definition is probably “no detectable vital signs that show the person to be living at all, physiologically or mentally,” but that’s been defined and redefined many times in the past.) ”
Exactly right. It is my opinion that these people never died, thus never went to heaven, hell or what have you. It’s just that the EEG didn’t register brainwaves, and they were presumed to be clinically dead.
Here’s a video with an experienced meditator who stops his brainwaves, flatlines on the EEG. Of course he’s not void of BW activity, but the tools we have now to read BW’s are unable to register all brainwave activity. You don’t have to watch the full 10 minutes, just fast forward toward the end.
— http://youtu.be/LFFMtq5g8N4 —
LikeLike
Victoria, the criterion you suggest to rule out spiritual belief is whether it depends on the variability of culture. The visions of Mary at Zeitoun were cultural-dependent interpretations of a natural phenomenon. But, this criterion alone cannot be the whole story. What about spiritual beliefs that are independent of culture such as belief in spirits and afterlife?
LikeLike
“What about spiritual beliefs that are independent of culture such as belief in spirits and afterlife?”
Brandon, I’m not aware of beliefs in spirits and afterlife that are independent of culture. Can you give me examples?
LikeLike