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Open Conversation Part 1

Nate

So I’ve decided to bring the “Kathy” series to an end. However, we’ve had some fun in those threads when the conversation has gone off into interesting tangents, so I’d like to keep that part of it going for anyone who’s interested. These new threads will no longer focus on Kathy or the things we were discussing with her. So thanks for your time, Kathy! Take care.

There are no real rules for these threads. But to kick off the conversation, I’ll go back to the discussion on Paul that a few of us were having. Laurie views Deut 13 as a prophecy about Paul, so why don’t we take a quick look at it?

“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. 9 But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11 And all Israel shall hear and fear and never again do any such wickedness as this among you.

12 “If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, 13 that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, 14 then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, 15 you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. 16 You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. It shall be a heap forever. It shall not be built again. 17 None of the devoted things shall stick to your hand, that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger and show you mercy and have compassion on you and multiply you, as he swore to your fathers, 18 if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, and doing what is right in the sight of the Lord your God.

I can see how one could apply this to Paul. However, I can also see how Jews could have applied it to Jesus as well, especially if he was claiming divinity for himself. And I’m sure this could have applied to lots of people during Israel’s history. Why should we think it’s pointing to Paul specifically, and why wouldn’t it also apply to Jesus?

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Published by Nate

1,090 thoughts on “Open Conversation Part 1”

  1. Victoria,” I LOL’d at this part:

    “The target audience for God’s Debris is people who enjoy having their brains spun around inside their skulls.”

    Yes I had to laugh at this too ! 🙂

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  3. Kathy,

    I do not believe I am choosing to not believe. I simply don’t. Pride is not a factor. if it is, then it must also be a factor in why I am not Muslim, Hindu, Shinto, etc. Does pride make you not worship Ixchel? I think not. I think you don’t worship her because you are not an Aztec, period. If you were born in Mexico when she was a living god to the Aztecs, you would have believed she was real.

    As you pointed out, you don’t know much about me. You have scant knowledge about my capacity for forgiveness, understanding of humility, ability to love, or propensity to be prideful. You don’t know why I was raised as an atheist, or what abuses my family and I have suffered at the hands of Christians. I will single out Christians in this case, because it most certainly was Christians involved in inflicting profound suffering upon multiple generations of my family.

    Maybe, like my own personal Buddha, you have taught me something tonight. If I put you in a category without knowing you, as you did to me, then I do you a disservice. I have been guilty of doing just what you said atheists do, but I have not done it to you. Like Christians, we atheists can grow in our understanding of how we interact with the world. Two years ago, or even yesterday, I would have wanted to unleash a world of nastiness in your direction, and I might want to do that tomorrow. For this moment, the only thing that matters, I am feeling too mindful to lapse into the angry tirades of which I am capable. I think it is a bit funny, actually.

    i can’t necessarily defend my non-belief to you or anybody – it just is. It is like defending why I am female, or why I am short. It is nonsensical. I do not expect you to defend your beliefs. I know you believe, and that is how it is. There is nothing to debate.

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  4. Victoria, sorry I didn’t explain better, I meant the general spiritual beliefs that develop independent of culture. Of course every culture’s god is different in some way, but it’s the fact that they almost all have gods. So, if you trust your color vision because you think it’s independent of culture, why do you not also trust your god-sense? Or, if you trust your proprioception because it’s independent of culture, why do you not trust your afterlife belief?

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  5. How do you resolve the problem of hiddenness and the claim that there exists a God that has those attributes?

    Hi Howie,

    I feel its important for me to seek God. I’m not always consistent in this, but I want to be more consistent.

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  8. What would convince me that God doesn’t exist would be proof of another explanation for our existence.

    Hi Kathy,

    For me, the existence of other explanations would not convince me that God does not exist.

    As I understand it there are countless other beliefs that attempt to explain our existence. These have developed and merged over time. We live in a world of meaning makers and languages.

    For example

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_view

    But for me personally, these don’t convince me there is no God.

    Do you have any other thoughts regarding religions in the world?

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  9. I mean the existence of other world-views does not negate a Reality or God.I see no separation of the two.

    If there is reality beyond our impressions, then that reality is also what we would call truth. If there is God, that God is also reality. The three. Reality, God, Truth are directly correlated to me.

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  11. The the older you get, the smarterer you get right Arch? 🙂

    I mean, we all know the height of maturity and insight is only reached when one believes that there is no God right?

    If only I could grasp the enlightened precept of non belief! Oh the dream is but a vapour on my small minded brain!

    Then at last, I would be free from the bonds of my youthful slumber and awake to a belief that more aligns to what you believe Arch…

    Then finally I would have reached a level that precedes my age…

    Seriously, what does this have to do with how old I am?

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  12. Gleise,

    when did I put you in a category?

    “i can’t necessarily defend my non-belief to you or anybody – it just is. It is like defending why I am female, or why I am short. It is nonsensical. I do not expect you to defend your beliefs. I know you believe, and that is how it is. There is nothing to debate.”

    I don’t see it the same way.. we can’t choose our gender or our height, but we can choose what to believe based on the information we have/ obtain and also HOW we process that information. We’re not born with our beliefs.. so we have to make a choice.. we have to decide what to believe. And it’s all based on our reasoning and… of course, and most importantly, our objectivity.

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  14. Portal,

    “For me, the existence of other explanations would not convince me that God does not exist.

    As I understand it there are countless other beliefs that attempt to explain our existence. ”

    They all attempt to, but they fail. Christianity is the only religion (faith) that gives a reasonable explanation.

    I’d need *empirical proof* of another explanation for our existence in order to no longer believe in God.

    I guess, the same way atheists demand empirical proof before they will believe in God.

    But the key difference is that there is lots of non empirical evidence for God’s existence.. and nothing by comparison that we aren’t created beings.

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  15. Arch,

    thanks for that esoteric and and vague answer. I guess that settles it then….well played

    After all, The Pope, The Dalai Lama, The Queen and John Kerry are all quite a bit older than me. And like a mature wine, they admittedly have gained a zing that I do not have….

    and hey, on top of that…. as we all know they do all mutually agree with each other,

    and converge on a shared mature collective insight that I just can’t posses at my younger age.

    And since these older folk all conclusively agree with each other, their shared wisdom…actually wait

    What has age have to do with what I wrote above? we all have different life experiences. What has age have to do with believing in God?

    You commenting on my age as a retort to something you don’t agree with, is like me saying to a older, more matured person….

    “so you don’t agree with me eh? well, I’m glad I’m not a 75 year old! since some 75 year old are senile….so therefore they might have less a grasp on reality as I do…”

    and capping it off with some vague “if you have to ask” (although very poetic) does nothing to back up your previous comment, its like me saying –

    ….well I guess since that 75 year old could be senile, if he has to ask me what I mean, then he’ll never really get it….ah well…

    what you talking about Willis? 🙂 I mean are you for real?

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  17. ” I meant the general spiritual beliefs that develop independent of culture. Of course every culture’s god is different in some way, but it’s the fact that they almost all have gods.

    But that doesn’t mean that god exists. Studies show that in a crowd, approximately 95% of people will follow the other 5% without their conscience awareness. They flock like sheep. Other studies show that even when evidence is right in front of them people will go with majority opinion. Cerebral automatism is related to the learning process, giving people the propensity to line up to majority opinion even when it contradicts evidence.

    So, if you trust your color vision because you think it’s independent of culture, why do you not also trust your god-sense? Or, if you trust your proprioception because it’s independent of culture, why do you not trust your afterlife belief?

    Brandon, I feel fortunate that I’ve had “experiences” as a believer and a nonbeliever. I didn’t see god or hear voices, well, perhaps my own internal dialog which I became acutely aware of during one of those experiences. But after years of research, I now understand brain phenomena (giving you a sense of “enlightenment”) such as interhemispheric intrusion which, for the most part, involves activity in the limbic system. In other words, when activity in one brain structure becomes so elevated that it goes past a certain threshold, it vents, spills over into another. Right-hemispheric phenomena temporarily crowds out phenomena from the left. An interhemispheric intrusion can precipitate an event called ‘synaptic dropout’. This is when synapses (connections between nerve cells) actually drop out of service after excess input. It’s all technical, but these experiences can be induced when conditions are just right.

    For example, when I was a believer, I was told that if I had certain type feelings or sensations, that was the Holy Spirit. In church they would say the Holy Spirit was among us, and most everyone felt it. But we know from studies how this works, and why everyone can get the same feeling and sense of something. Evangelists, revivalist and faith healers know these techniques and use them on unsuspecting people. They know how to induce mild electrical changes deep within the brain, induce alpha waves that enhance imagination. Generally what follows is a release and elevation of opiates. In other words, they know how to get you high and the power of suggestion, reinforced by a history of religious indoctrination, will cause people to assume they are experiencing god phenomena.

    I am not saying there isn’t a creator. I question people’s personal “god” experiences. I can create these same god experiences on myself and others via neurotechnolog and/or other mind exercises. So when people have these experiences do question what actually happened and evaluate through a process of elimination? I dare say that most do not. I’ll give another example in a following comment.

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  18. Vic Tandy’s background is as an engineering designer and at the time he had a “ghost” experience, he was doing contract work for a company that manufactured medical equipment. The employees would say that the lab they were working in was haunted.

    “V.T. was working on his own one night after everyone else had left. As he sat at the desk writing he began to feel increasingly uncomfortable. He was sweating but cold and the feeling of depression was noticeable. The cats were moving around and the groans and creaks from what was now a deserted factory were ‘spooky’, but there was also something else. It was as though something was in the room with V.T. There was no way into the lab without walking past the desk where V.T. was working. He looked around and even checked the gas bottles to be sure there was not a leak into the room.

    There were oxygen and carbon dioxide bottles and occasionally the staff would work with anaesthetic agents, all of which could cause all sorts of problems if handled inappropriately. All of these checked out fine so V.T. went to get a cup of coffee and returned to the desk. As he was writing he became aware that he was being watched, and a figure slowly emerged to his left. It was indistinct and on the periphery of his vision but it moved as V.T. would expect a person to. The apparition was grey and made no sound. The hair was standing up on V.T.’s neck and there was a distinct chill in the room. As V.T. recalls, ‘It would not be unreasonable to suggest I was terrified‘. V.T. was unable to see any detail and finally built up the courage to turn and face the thing. As he turned the apparition faded and disappeared. There was absolutely no evidence to support what he had seen so he decided he must be me cracking up and went home.

    The following day V.T. was entering a fencing competition and needed to cut a thread onto the tang of a spare foil blade so that he could attach the handle. He had all the tools necessary but it was so much easier to use the engineer’s bench vice in the lab to hold the blade that he went in early to cut the thread. It was only a five minute job so he put the blade in the vice and went in search of a drop of oil to help things along. As he returned, the free end of the blade was frantically vibrating up and down. Combining this with his experience from the previous night he once again felt an immediate twinge of fright.

    However, vibrating pieces of metal were more familiar to him than apparitions so he decided to experiment. If the foil blade was being vibrated it was receiving energy which must have been varying in intensity at a rate equal to the resonant frequency of the blade. Energy of the type just described is usually referred to as sound. There was a lot of background noise but there could also be low frequency sound or infrasound which V.T. could not hear. As it happens sound behaves fairly predictably in long thin tubes such as organ pipes and ex-garages joined end to end so V.T. started his experiment. He placed the foil blade in a drill vice and slid it along the floor. Interestingly the vibration got bigger until the blade was level with the desk (half way down the room) after the desk it reduced in amplitude, stopping altogether at the far end of the lab.

    V.T. and his colleagues were sharing their lab with a low frequency standing wave! The energy in the wave peaked in the center of the room indicating that there was half a complete cycle. It is important to understand that what we call sound is caused by variation in the pressure of the air around us. It is represented graphically as a wave. If someone were to shout at you the sound wave will travel from them to you transmitted by the air between you both, i.e. it is a traveling wave. However the wave sharing our lab was of just the right frequency to be completely reflected back by the walls at each end, so it was not going anywhere, hence it was a standing wave. In effect the wave was folded back on itself reinforcing the peak energy in the center of the room. Once V.T. knew this he calculated the frequency of the standing sound wave as follows;

    There are now two questions. The first is where is the energy coming from? The second is what does an 19 Hz standing wave do to people? The first was answered very quickly when V.T. discussed the problem with the works’ foreman who told him that they had installed a new fan in the extraction system for the cleaning room at the end of the lab. We switched off the fan and the standing wave went away.“

    So did the hauntings. The cause of his experiences was due to infrasound. Low frequency sound is not easy to detect without the proper equipment. Had Tandy been a religious man he most likely would have assumed it was demons or Satan.

    More details.

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  19. Arch, thanks!

    Kathy, I can too change my gender. I feel no desire to change it, but I could.

    I disagree with you about your assertion that atheists are choosing to not believe. Choice is a tricky thing..Do you really know what I am choosing? Do you have the answer the question of how much free will we really have? I am not a philosopher, but I know that many of us are effectively unconscious for most of the time, lost in incessant thinking. I could choose to direct my thinking in such a way that I came to believe in a deity, but there are undercurrents and sub-programs going on that would be directing those so-called “choices”. Why Christianity? Why one god instead of ten? We are products of our time and culture.

    “Ok.. so now I would ask *why* it makes more sense to you to not believe. Then after you answered, I would point out the arguments for why I believe you’re wrong. And, ideally, we’d continue to debate until we could come to an agreement (or at least until we’ve both run out of questions).. But, with liberals/ atheists/ lefties/ ? it never reaches that point.. they always eventually end up personally attacking me, pointing out *my* faults and then ending the debate. Always with my questions never getting answers.”

    I believe the above paragraph is when you clumped me in with “liberals/atheists/lefties”. I am certainly in that group, but there is only so much you can assume about any one of based on that. Do you know how much I considered the Bible, how much I tried to see what believers see in it? Do you know how many times I’ve prayed? do you know how objectively I tried to look at it?

    I don’t even know what to say in response to your statement that what we choose to believe is based on reasoning and objectivity. I believe that what I believe is certainly based on whatever reasoning and objectivity I can muster. I have thought a lot about this – most atheists have. I am not sure about your objectivity and reasoning. Who is in a better position to be objective, someone who is looking at religion from the outside, or somebody who strongly holds one particular set of beliefs already?

    I do not believe in any gods, but I do not contend that I know that none exist. I personally don’t believe there are any. As soon as I see incontrovertible evidence that there is one, I will believe it – that makes sense. I will allow for that god to be any deity or number of deities, as it may reveal itself to me. I have investigated Christianity sufficiently, but not all of the other religions out there. How could I possibly believe in the Judeo-Christian God and Jesus without first having ruled out all the others? I better get busy. There’s some objectivity and reasoning for you.

    I agree with you that this entire conversation is an exercise in futility. We’ve both been through it many times before. We probably strengthen our respective positions.in our minds, but there is no net change. If you could effect change in me, what would you change? Why? What would constitute success for you in this interchange?

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  20. One more note: Infrasound can result naturally from severe weather, surf, lee waves, avalanches, earthquakes, volcanoes, bolides, waterfalls, calving of icebergs, auroras, lightening and upper-atmospheric lighting.

    “There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the lord came down from heaven…” Matthew 28: 2

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  22. Ruth, fascinating article. Shermer should have taken the radio and had it looked at by an electronics expert. If that had happened to me I would have immediately checked space weather, well maybe not right then if I was about to get married. 😀

    Studies show that when there was a sudden increase in geomagnetic activity, there was an increase reporting of poltergeist activity. The results were statistically significant and associated with geophysical factors.

    (Gearhart, Livingston, and Persinger, M.A.; “Geophysical Variables and Behavior: XXXIII. Onsets of Historical and Contemporary Poltergeist Episodes Occurred with Sudden Increases in Geomagnetic Activity,” Perceptual and Motor Skills, 62:463, 1986.)

    (Wilkinson, H.P., and Gauld, Alan; “Geomagnetism and Anomalous Experiences, 1868-1980,” Society for Psychical Research, Proceedings, 57:275, 1993.)

    And when the geomagnetic field was quite, there was an increase in telepathic type phenomena, such as dream telepathy.

    (Krippner, Stanley, and Persinger, Michael; “Enhancement of Accuracy of Telepathic Dreams during Periods of Decreased Geomagnetic Activity,” Journal of Scientific Exploration, 8:434, 1994.)

    (Persinger, Michael A.; “Geophysical Variables and Behavior: XXX. Intense Paranormal Experiences Occur during Days of Quiet, Global, Geomagnetic Activity, ” Perceptual and Motor Skills, 61:320, 1985)

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  23. Neuro,

    I love it that those studies exist, and that you can cite them. Those are some of the best titles for studies ever! That made my day. : )

    I once worked at a psychiatric hospital,and was educating the team members about a group activity I had done. I had each group member eat one M & M, and then walk as far as he or she though would be necessary to work off the calories. A psychologist said, “You can’t just go around making stuff up like that. Where’s your proof?” I produced the citation – somebody had done a study, and found that most people have to walk the length of an American football field to work off one M & M.

    The psychologist was dismissive of the study, which was solid, in my opinion. In a passive aggressive and possibly confusing gesture, when I left that job, I anonymously put a hard copy of a study in his door pocket. The title said something like “The weight-bearing capacity of asses in a double-blind blah, blah, blah.” I’ve been chuckling about it for years.

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  25. The title said something like “The weight-bearing capacity of asses in a double-blind blah, blah, blah.” I’ve been chuckling about it for years.

    LMAO Btw, it’s great to have you aboard. I have some ear patches to help curtail sea sickness in case you need them, although the seas have calmed quite a bit as of late. You just never know when another storm will brew. 😀

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