“Yes, clearly I’m the one here who lacks objectivity. You got me, Kathy.”
Assuming this is sarcasm, could you give the evidence of proof of my lack of objectivity Ruth?
I provided proof of your lack of objectivity with your very own words.. so don’t you think you should do the same? Instead of just vague accusations without proof?
“Now, I’m glad you could take the time to make this strawman argument but you still didn’t answer my question.
Did you read the Discovery article? And did you watch the video linked in the article?
I won’t hold my breath waiting for an answer. We all know you don’t like to answer questions.”
Ruth, I never answered your question because it didnt’ make sense.. I responded to your video and article.. of course I watched and read it.
Free will is a really interesting topic. I agree that we have it, at least in the way that we typically mean it. But I also think there’s a case to be made for the idea that each decision we make is influenced by everything that came before it — all our past experiences, our knowledge about a given situation, our emotional state, our hormone levels, our level of education, our level of intelligence, whatever events are happening around us at the time, etc. Considering all of those factors, is it really possible that we would ever make any decisions differently?
There’s no way to ever know this, but it’s definitely interesting…
“Except no one’s intimidated. I was merely explaining that when you act as if it’s “absolute truth” that there’s no way you could verify it’s “absolute” or even “true” but only that you “believe it’s true.”
How am I “acting” like it’s “absolute truth”?
And why is it when you or anyone else here makes statements of what you believe, the same doesn’t apply?
In other words, what EXACTLY am I doing differently than anyone else here??
I’m still reading, but what I find most interesting thus far is that Scott Adams would write such a book …
Nan, yeah, definitely not what I expected from someone who writes comics.
I tend to lean towards this definition. Perhaps because I don’t believe in supernatural entities; thus, there is no outer space being that is influencing my decisions and/or personal choices. Haven’t read Sam Harris’ book. Should I?
I agree. I don’t think deities or aliens are messing with our brains since there is no evidence for this. Only read Harris’ book if you like to entertain ideas that seem counter-intuitive, it can kind of throw your mind for a loop. Harris says free will is an illusion and claims that we cannot control what thoughts are going to pop into our heads next. I think he has videos on the subject that sum up the book.
“I responded to your video and article.. of course I watched and read it.” – I don’t believe you Kathy, prove me wrong by giving Ruth a brief synopsis of each.
By everything you say! It’s all hot or cold, i.e., your way or no way.
What exactly are you doing differently? You don’t give anyone the benefit of doubt. Instead, you claim anyone that doesn’t agree with you as “wrong” (along with being a liberal or atheist) and in jeopardy of being judged by God for being wrong (which, BTW, you do NOT have the credentials to even make this threat).
And DON’T ask me to provide you with something you have written to prove this. It’s not just individual words or sentences or paragraphs. It’s your entire demeanor on this blog. (And, from what Paul says, on every other place you frequent).
“How am I “acting” like it’s “absolute truth”?- kathy
when you say things like, “you reject god due to your pride.” or atheists get upset when you show them them truth” stuff like that.
“And why is it when you or anyone else here makes statements of what you believe, the same doesn’t apply?” – kathy
it does apply – unless I can back it up. If I told you that I witnessed a tree fall on a turtle in the woods, it could be true or may not be. If no one else was around, and if there’s no video tape, etc, then there’s no way you’d know for sure what the truth is. it would all be a belief on your part. But there are levels to belief. It’s not so hard to believe that a tree fell on a turtle in the woods, but it is something else to say that a space alien fell on a turtle in the woods.
One has much more plausibility than others. So taking the bible, where a “virgin” was having a baby boy, I dont buy it. There’s no proof and besides that, it is totally against nature or anything else in the known world – so I do not believe that claim. You have asked several times before whether anyone could prove the bible was false… I guess i may not be able top prove it’s false absolutely, but the level of plausibility is very low.
“In other words, what EXACTLY am I doing differently than anyone else here??”- kathy
you’re one of the worst at answering questions (by that I mean at dodging) and one of the worst at saying others are bad at not answering questions.
You do seem to have a hard time correct uses of certain words…
and you say stuff like “my claim is my evidence…” Which is clearly poor reasoning and arguing skills. you cant seem to understand that a person’s devotion to something is only evidence at how much they’re devoted to something, and not in the validity of that something.
You make bad or unclear points and then say it’s the other person’s fault for missing your point.
you try to link politics and religion. You accept things for your religion that you dont for others (like martyrs as one example).
Kathy, the plain facts are you want to fight, to argue, to disagree, to criticize. You come onto a blog that you know is frequented by atheists and non-believers and then try to “convince” everyone they are wrong in their thinking. Did you really, deep down in your little Christian heart, expect anyone to change sides? If so, you are more brainwashed than I thought.
Agreed, Nan. Especially considering the quality of her “evidence.” For someone who has spent so much time “debating” over the years, I would have expected much more.
““How am I “acting” like it’s “absolute truth”?- kathy
when you say things like, “you reject god due to your pride.” or atheists get upset when you show them them truth” stuff like that.”
I’m stating a belief.. just like you do.. again, I’m doing nothing different than you all.. except when I state my believe, I actually include your OWN words to back up my claim.
You know, If I’m to be completely honest, although Kathy still is far from becoming “one of us,” as some theists, such as Portal and Laurie have, she HAS toned down her rhetoric a great deal since she first began, and seems to be trying a bit harder to fit in.
Arch! And Nate! Have you been reading the same Kathy comments as I have?
I will admit, she does seem to have brief moments where she seems to be more moderate in her thinking, but it isn’t long before the “old” Kathy jumps in and slaps all of the “liberals” and “atheists” in the face.
I believe in Free Will. Of course there are a lot of factors that may influence our decisions, but at this moment, i fully believe I am capable of making free choices. ~ William
William,
I would like to agree with you. I find it unsettling to consider the possibility that free will is an illusion, but there are those who think it is just that. They make some good points: (3 min. video by Sam Harris). There are others like Dan Dennett who disagree with him.
It seems to me that we have a version of free will over our spoken words and actions because we can “filter” our thoughts and ask ourselves “do I really want to say this?”, “do I really want to do this?” before we actually do something. So at that level we do have a “choice”. But, as Harris points out, we don’t really get to choose our internal thoughts to begin with. We can’t think of something before we think it and decide whether to think it or not. Things just pop into our minds and we have no idea why.
Free will is a really interesting topic. I agree that we have it, at least in the way that we typically mean it. But I also think there’s a case to be made for the idea that each decision we make is influenced by everything that came before it — all our past experiences, our knowledge about a given situation, our emotional state, our hormone levels, our level of education, our level of intelligence, whatever events are happening around us at the time, etc. Considering all of those factors, is it really possible that we would ever make any decisions differently? ~ Nate
Yeah, I find it interesting too and wonder the same thing about all of those factors. Perhaps the neurological expert here can weigh in on the topic 🙂
I’m glad you took the time to read the book. I’ve read a lot of Sam Harris material but have not read his work on free will. Thanks for the suggestion. I’ll check it out.
I think it depends on what people mean when they say freewill,
For example, I like to have a healthy body as long as possible,
For this reason, even though I might prefer to smash a tub of vanilla ice cream at a later point, I instead might practice free will by instead eating porridge and all bran in the morning with fruit. Since I know the fibre will fill me up and I would diminish the craving for sweet food later as a late night snack.
Doesn’t always work mind you 🙂 I still at times give into the preference for craving sugar, but my point is that freewill is the choice between limited options.
The preferences I have are based on what have been exposed to and how I’ve developed (family, culture, tradition, genetics)
However out of these preferences I have certain choices that trump others.
For example, say I only had tuna, a tomato and bread in the fridge.
My free will (creativity) and conditioning might prompt me to use all or some of these ingredients to make a sandwich. For me, I see the free will in the different choices different people make to create their sandwich, out of the ingredients they have available.
And preferences are not binary, they trump one another based on the values of people and their goals. Free will is complicated.
For example, a smoker might have a biological and psychological addiction to smoking. In certain moments they have a preference to smoke, but in other moments they are still smoking, although there is also a struggle within them to stop. But the guarantee that ensures a smoker to stop smoking is if they have 0 cigarettes to smoke.
But even if cigarettes are available, some smokers find alternatives and replace smoking with something else, or stop altogether.
The replacement of one action with another is to me is freewill,
Since despite the biological pull in smoking, the opposing forces of social pressure, self preservation and family responsibility pulls the other way. If free will in this sense did not strictly exist, there would be only life long smokers.
Animals also seem to express free will. Our dog for example, has been torn between chasing her ball and having her dinner.
The ball in this case won out, and she neglected her food.
Despite the biological pull and priority to eat over playing fetch, our little canine still preferred to remain fixated on the ball. I could see the process of her being torn between two desires, and one desire trumping the other, since to continue acting, one desire must eventually win out.
I admit there are a lot of factors involved, in the example above the meal was in the other room, and the ball was readily available to be seen, giving the ball immediate attention. But she could still smell the food, and I assume could hear it being prepared. If my little dog was more hungry, or another plate of food was available, then perhaps she would have responded differently.
Freewill to me is the capacity we each have to prefer one action out of a number of choices. It is the capacity to choose how we use the resources available to us, based on what we are given.
Free will is making a “sandwich” out of the ingredients we have at any given time.
Our creativity and traditions and practicality (do we cut the crusts off, brown/white bread, salt, pepper) depend on our capacity to acquire ingredients, based on what’s provided and available.
Our creativity in itself is coloured through our upbringing, and the choices we make is what we do with all these conditions and how we use them. Which preferences are most valued.
I mean, sandwiches themselves have taken on a very western identity and a very western way to organise food.
Free will to me, is the choice we have to act on our preferences, and by acting on our preferences we give value to some over others.
Even if those preferences we do act upon are not the best for us or for others, and are actually to our detriment. Like smoking.
Or in other cases some preferences acted upon are simply not based on Maslow’s needs, but on other needs like social interaction. I think we all share the same desires, but how we go about meeting them is freewill.
Whether those approaches are effective in meeting these needs or not, freewill is involved in placing and replacing one action over another.
Like my dog abandoning her meal to chase a plastic ball 🙂
observing a dog hesitate before jumping from a couch suggests to me that animals also have a form of freewill (choice) involved in the way they process things…
Service station? I live MILES from the nearest service station, and it closed 4 hours ago. No, I’d rather just sit back and watch your god get you – could you get your next of kin to upload a pic of the charred corpse?
Finding Truth 
kathy, I don’t think anyone here is intimidated by anything you’ve said.
but if it makes you feel better…
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Ruth,
“Yes, clearly I’m the one here who lacks objectivity. You got me, Kathy.”
Assuming this is sarcasm, could you give the evidence of proof of my lack of objectivity Ruth?
I provided proof of your lack of objectivity with your very own words.. so don’t you think you should do the same? Instead of just vague accusations without proof?
“Now, I’m glad you could take the time to make this strawman argument but you still didn’t answer my question.
Did you read the Discovery article? And did you watch the video linked in the article?
I won’t hold my breath waiting for an answer. We all know you don’t like to answer questions.”
Ruth, I never answered your question because it didnt’ make sense.. I responded to your video and article.. of course I watched and read it.
Is there a follow up questions? I hope so..
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Free will is a really interesting topic. I agree that we have it, at least in the way that we typically mean it. But I also think there’s a case to be made for the idea that each decision we make is influenced by everything that came before it — all our past experiences, our knowledge about a given situation, our emotional state, our hormone levels, our level of education, our level of intelligence, whatever events are happening around us at the time, etc. Considering all of those factors, is it really possible that we would ever make any decisions differently?
There’s no way to ever know this, but it’s definitely interesting…
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“Except no one’s intimidated. I was merely explaining that when you act as if it’s “absolute truth” that there’s no way you could verify it’s “absolute” or even “true” but only that you “believe it’s true.”
How am I “acting” like it’s “absolute truth”?
And why is it when you or anyone else here makes statements of what you believe, the same doesn’t apply?
In other words, what EXACTLY am I doing differently than anyone else here??
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The only one around here Kathy, who’s intimidated, is you when Paul Williams shows up!
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@Nan
Nan, yeah, definitely not what I expected from someone who writes comics.
I agree. I don’t think deities or aliens are messing with our brains since there is no evidence for this. Only read Harris’ book if you like to entertain ideas that seem counter-intuitive, it can kind of throw your mind for a loop. Harris says free will is an illusion and claims that we cannot control what thoughts are going to pop into our heads next. I think he has videos on the subject that sum up the book.
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“I responded to your video and article.. of course I watched and read it.” – I don’t believe you Kathy, prove me wrong by giving Ruth a brief synopsis of each.
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How am I “acting” like it’s “absolute truth”?
By everything you say! It’s all hot or cold, i.e., your way or no way.
What exactly are you doing differently? You don’t give anyone the benefit of doubt. Instead, you claim anyone that doesn’t agree with you as “wrong” (along with being a liberal or atheist) and in jeopardy of being judged by God for being wrong (which, BTW, you do NOT have the credentials to even make this threat).
And DON’T ask me to provide you with something you have written to prove this. It’s not just individual words or sentences or paragraphs. It’s your entire demeanor on this blog. (And, from what Paul says, on every other place you frequent).
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“How am I “acting” like it’s “absolute truth”?- kathy
when you say things like, “you reject god due to your pride.” or atheists get upset when you show them them truth” stuff like that.
“And why is it when you or anyone else here makes statements of what you believe, the same doesn’t apply?” – kathy
it does apply – unless I can back it up. If I told you that I witnessed a tree fall on a turtle in the woods, it could be true or may not be. If no one else was around, and if there’s no video tape, etc, then there’s no way you’d know for sure what the truth is. it would all be a belief on your part. But there are levels to belief. It’s not so hard to believe that a tree fell on a turtle in the woods, but it is something else to say that a space alien fell on a turtle in the woods.
One has much more plausibility than others. So taking the bible, where a “virgin” was having a baby boy, I dont buy it. There’s no proof and besides that, it is totally against nature or anything else in the known world – so I do not believe that claim. You have asked several times before whether anyone could prove the bible was false… I guess i may not be able top prove it’s false absolutely, but the level of plausibility is very low.
“In other words, what EXACTLY am I doing differently than anyone else here??”- kathy
you’re one of the worst at answering questions (by that I mean at dodging) and one of the worst at saying others are bad at not answering questions.
You do seem to have a hard time correct uses of certain words…
and you say stuff like “my claim is my evidence…” Which is clearly poor reasoning and arguing skills. you cant seem to understand that a person’s devotion to something is only evidence at how much they’re devoted to something, and not in the validity of that something.
You make bad or unclear points and then say it’s the other person’s fault for missing your point.
you try to link politics and religion. You accept things for your religion that you dont for others (like martyrs as one example).
stuff like that.
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Kathy, the plain facts are you want to fight, to argue, to disagree, to criticize. You come onto a blog that you know is frequented by atheists and non-believers and then try to “convince” everyone they are wrong in their thinking. Did you really, deep down in your little Christian heart, expect anyone to change sides? If so, you are more brainwashed than I thought.
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Agreed, Nan. Especially considering the quality of her “evidence.” For someone who has spent so much time “debating” over the years, I would have expected much more.
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““How am I “acting” like it’s “absolute truth”?- kathy
when you say things like, “you reject god due to your pride.” or atheists get upset when you show them them truth” stuff like that.”
I’m stating a belief.. just like you do.. again, I’m doing nothing different than you all.. except when I state my believe, I actually include your OWN words to back up my claim.
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You know, If I’m to be completely honest, although Kathy still is far from becoming “one of us,” as some theists, such as Portal and Laurie have, she HAS toned down her rhetoric a great deal since she first began, and seems to be trying a bit harder to fit in.
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Yeah, I would agree, Arch. Sometimes we jump on her too quickly.
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Arch! And Nate! Have you been reading the same Kathy comments as I have?
I will admit, she does seem to have brief moments where she seems to be more moderate in her thinking, but it isn’t long before the “old” Kathy jumps in and slaps all of the “liberals” and “atheists” in the face.
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Nan, go back to Kathy 1, read a few, compare, contrast, then get back to me. Toothaches don’t stop all at once, they taper off.
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William,
I would like to agree with you. I find it unsettling to consider the possibility that free will is an illusion, but there are those who think it is just that. They make some good points: (3 min. video by Sam Harris). There are others like Dan Dennett who disagree with him.
It seems to me that we have a version of free will over our spoken words and actions because we can “filter” our thoughts and ask ourselves “do I really want to say this?”, “do I really want to do this?” before we actually do something. So at that level we do have a “choice”. But, as Harris points out, we don’t really get to choose our internal thoughts to begin with. We can’t think of something before we think it and decide whether to think it or not. Things just pop into our minds and we have no idea why.
Yeah, I find it interesting too and wonder the same thing about all of those factors. Perhaps the neurological expert here can weigh in on the topic 🙂
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Hey Dave,
I’m glad you took the time to read the book. I’ve read a lot of Sam Harris material but have not read his work on free will. Thanks for the suggestion. I’ll check it out.
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In regards to freewill,
I think it depends on what people mean when they say freewill,
For example, I like to have a healthy body as long as possible,
For this reason, even though I might prefer to smash a tub of vanilla ice cream at a later point, I instead might practice free will by instead eating porridge and all bran in the morning with fruit. Since I know the fibre will fill me up and I would diminish the craving for sweet food later as a late night snack.
Doesn’t always work mind you 🙂 I still at times give into the preference for craving sugar, but my point is that freewill is the choice between limited options.
The preferences I have are based on what have been exposed to and how I’ve developed (family, culture, tradition, genetics)
However out of these preferences I have certain choices that trump others.
For example, say I only had tuna, a tomato and bread in the fridge.
My free will (creativity) and conditioning might prompt me to use all or some of these ingredients to make a sandwich. For me, I see the free will in the different choices different people make to create their sandwich, out of the ingredients they have available.
And preferences are not binary, they trump one another based on the values of people and their goals. Free will is complicated.
For example, a smoker might have a biological and psychological addiction to smoking. In certain moments they have a preference to smoke, but in other moments they are still smoking, although there is also a struggle within them to stop. But the guarantee that ensures a smoker to stop smoking is if they have 0 cigarettes to smoke.
But even if cigarettes are available, some smokers find alternatives and replace smoking with something else, or stop altogether.
The replacement of one action with another is to me is freewill,
Since despite the biological pull in smoking, the opposing forces of social pressure, self preservation and family responsibility pulls the other way. If free will in this sense did not strictly exist, there would be only life long smokers.
Animals also seem to express free will. Our dog for example, has been torn between chasing her ball and having her dinner.
The ball in this case won out, and she neglected her food.
Despite the biological pull and priority to eat over playing fetch, our little canine still preferred to remain fixated on the ball. I could see the process of her being torn between two desires, and one desire trumping the other, since to continue acting, one desire must eventually win out.
I admit there are a lot of factors involved, in the example above the meal was in the other room, and the ball was readily available to be seen, giving the ball immediate attention. But she could still smell the food, and I assume could hear it being prepared. If my little dog was more hungry, or another plate of food was available, then perhaps she would have responded differently.
Freewill to me is the capacity we each have to prefer one action out of a number of choices. It is the capacity to choose how we use the resources available to us, based on what we are given.
Free will is making a “sandwich” out of the ingredients we have at any given time.
Our creativity and traditions and practicality (do we cut the crusts off, brown/white bread, salt, pepper) depend on our capacity to acquire ingredients, based on what’s provided and available.
Our creativity in itself is coloured through our upbringing, and the choices we make is what we do with all these conditions and how we use them. Which preferences are most valued.
I mean, sandwiches themselves have taken on a very western identity and a very western way to organise food.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandwich#History
Free will to me, is the choice we have to act on our preferences, and by acting on our preferences we give value to some over others.
Even if those preferences we do act upon are not the best for us or for others, and are actually to our detriment. Like smoking.
Or in other cases some preferences acted upon are simply not based on Maslow’s needs, but on other needs like social interaction. I think we all share the same desires, but how we go about meeting them is freewill.
Whether those approaches are effective in meeting these needs or not, freewill is involved in placing and replacing one action over another.
Like my dog abandoning her meal to chase a plastic ball 🙂
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Sorry, social Interaction is one of Maslows needs…I meant the more basic needs he outlined
like food, water and shelter…
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Also,
observing a dog hesitate before jumping from a couch suggests to me that animals also have a form of freewill (choice) involved in the way they process things…
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Thanks, Portal – now you’ve got me craving a tuna sandwich, and I don’t have any tuna. Your god’ll get you for that!
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Arch.
you could exert some will power and creativity and drive to the service station 🙂
or you might just have to wait until morning when the shops are open….
or if your vying for a cheap alternative you could mix spam with and
if you squint your taste buds it might slightly resemble tuna…
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meant to write spam with pickles*
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Service station? I live MILES from the nearest service station, and it closed 4 hours ago. No, I’d rather just sit back and watch your god get you – could you get your next of kin to upload a pic of the charred corpse?
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