The conversation about free will has been interesting to read. A lot of thought-provoking comments. Generally speaking, when believers are talking about free will they generally mean the choice between “good and evil”. “Sin” or evil is up to interpretation based on their belief system. So, as Ryan said, the concept of free will is complicated. A dog might be torn over which instinct to satisfy, chasing a ball (prey instinct) or eating, but he/she’s biology is trying to determine which of those two will be the most rewarding (dopamine).
I also think that sometimes free will gets mixed up with discipline and indoctrination. We can train a dog to not poop in the house, so the dog learns to go outside instead. He will be discipline (usually in the form of pain or scolding) if he poops in the house. Choosing to poop outside — was that free will?
When believers decide to remain celibate until they get married, is that free will or indoctrination? The individual may have had his/her brain wired to think that having sex outside of marriage goes against his god’s will and that going against god’s will may cost him a reward of eternal life.
I haven’t watched Harris’ clip yet, but I have read a good bit of his opinion on the subject, and I tend to agree with him. Sure, we can choose to not do harm to another, but not always. Both men and women have a gene dubbed the “warrior” gene, but it’s a romantic way of saying an aggression gene. It gets passed from the mother’s X chromosome, and the gene has a greater likelihood of being turned on in males depending on the environment. Was that free will?
Studies show that females subjected to mild chronic stress during gestation produce offspring with larger hindbrains (brutish) and smaller forebrains (executive function). So they come out with fight or flight behavior. Was that free will?
In triplets or other multiple births, males who are situated between females will have a stronger sex drive because of hormones, giving them a much stronger urge to procreate with multiple females to pass on their genes. Is that free will?
Children who experience early damage in the prefrontal cortex tend to never completely develop social or moral reasoning. Individuals with adult-acquired damage are usually aware of proper social and moral conduct, but are unable to apply such behaviors. The forehead is the most common place for injury, and considering that every 15 seconds someone sustains a traumatic brain injury in America should give us pause. According to the Brain Injury Association, traumatic brain injury is the most frequent cause of disability and death among children and adolescents.
Then there is indoctrination of a culture. So for example, Moses hears god telling him to gather an army and go out a kill every man, boy and married women in other tribes that don’t bow to Yahweh, but keep the young girls for themselves as sex slaves. They are also commanded to split the plunder among themselves. Was that free will? When men and women go to war, they have to go through boot camp to have their brains rewired to kill another person — to dehumanize them. When they dehumanize another person after intense religious indoctrination, is their behavior free will?
Has anyone ever read the studies on the Stanford Experiment? Was that free will?
When someone is in power for too long, studies show their brain changes which profoundly affects their behavior. Is that free will?
Two thought provoking videos I recommend are “The Brain and the Law”. Neuroscientist, David Eagleman considers some emerging questions relating to law and neuroscience, challenging long-held assumptions in criminality and punishment. He discusses the concept of “free will”.
and a Stanford lecture by world renown psychologist Philip Zimbardo. He reveals parallels of the Stanford Experiment and the abuses by military guards at Abu Ghraib. He also explains how the environment can highly influence decision making.
“The only one around here Kathy, who’s intimidated, is you when Paul Williams shows up!”
so true arch.
Kathy knows that I can discredit her using her own words,
something she just claimed no one does,,
I’ve been doing it for 6yrs.
she actually stopped responding to me about 3 yrs ago,
because she knows she can never get away with anything,
I know what she’s going to say before she even says it,
therefore, no such thing as free will. lol.
I stalk her on the internet because so many well meaning atheists, liberals and Mormons get in to honest debates with her, unaware of Kathy’s real motive, not realizing that every one of the thousands of questions Kathy asks, has already been answered before.
I have a hard time with the notion of determinism vs. freewill. I’d like to think I have freely made some of the choices I’ve made in life. I’d like to think I’m free to choose yogurt or ice cream, coffee or tea, the mountains or the beach. At the same time I recognize there are all sorts of things that influence my thinking at any given time such that the events that happen preceding a any decision contribute to whatever choice I might make. So then I wonder if it’s really freewill at all.
and pardon me, but I would also like to share a word from Kathy’s pastor,
in his ” daily devotional” for today,
his desperate pleas for money, in all caps:
“THE ONLY WAY SATAN CAN NEUTRALIZE IN ANY WAY OUR WORK HERE, SLOW IT DOWN, OR SILENCE ME IN ANY WAY IS THROUGH OUR FINANCES! I DON’T NEED MILLIONS OF DOLLARS SINCE LIVEPRAYER DOESN’T OWN BUILDINGS, PRIVATE JETS, LUXURY CARS, MANSIONS, NOR DO I LIVE LIKE A HOLLYWOOD CELEBRITY. IN A MODERN DAY FISHES AND LOAVES MIRACLE, GOD USES THE $65,000 WE REQUIRE EACH MONTH TO ENABLE US TO MINISTER TO THE 2.5 MILLION PLUS PEOPLE WORLDWIDE WE REACH DAILY ONLINE AND OUR NIGHTLY TV AUDIENCE OF APX 300,000.
FOR LESS THAN $800,000 A YEAR, THE APX BUDGET OF A LOCAL CHURCH WITH LESS THAN 1,000 MEMBERS MEETING ONCE A WEEK, LIVEPRAYER IS NOT ONLY ABLE TO IMPACT LIVES AND SAVE SOULS WORLDWIDE EACH DAY, BUT USE OUR PROVEN MINISTRY VEHICLES ONLINE AND ON TV TO HELP LEAD OUR NATION BACK TO GOD AND HIS TRUTH BEFORE WE SEE THE FINAL WRATH AND JUDGMENT OF ALMIGHTY GOD POURED OUT ON OUR LAND FOR OUR SIN AND REBELLION!
TODAY, I AM COMING TO YOU AND ASKING YOU TO PRAY ABOUT WHAT YOU CAN DO TO HELP ME. I AM ONLY ASKING TO KEEP IN PLACE THE EXISTING MINSITRY TOOLS ONLINE AND ON TV WE REQUIRE TO FULFILL HIS WORK HERE EACH DAY. WE DESPERATELY NEED TO COVER THE $53,000 FROM SEPTEMBER THAT IS CRITICAL TO OUR ONGOING OPERATIONS. $25,000 OF THAT BRINGS OUR INTERNET OPERATIONS CURRENT THROUGH THE END OF SEPTEMBER, AND THE OTHER $28,000 IS DESPERATELY NEEDED TODAY TO INSURE WE DON’T LOSE OUR TV CONTRACT IN CHICAGO THAT I BELIEVE IS CRITICAL TO OUR WORK IN THESE FINAL DAYS OF 2014!!!”
Kathy, I really should thank you for the many years of laughter you and your cult leader have given me.
“I’d like to think I’m free to choose yogurt or ice cream, coffee or tea, the mountains or the beach.”
Right, but those really have nothing to do with morality, do they? When we are discussing free will, isn’t it generally about morality, or our interpretation of morality? We have studies showing that empathy is intrinsic and our mirror neurons tend to kick in around age 4 when we can recognize ourselves in the mirror. But child development studies have shown that even babies show empathy and recognize injustice towards others. So, was that free will or was it intrinsic, instinct?
All of this is very humbling. It shows us that when we make prosocial decisions, we really can’t take a whole lot of credit for it. We are getting rewarded, neurologically, to do good towards others, and ourselves. But what drives us to do good towards others is based on our survival instinct and our empathy. An infant who smiles and makes eye contact more often has a greater likelihood of having his/her emotional and physical needs met. A normal parent is flooded with oxytocin and vasopressin (bonding hormones), and this parent(s) becomes a slave to the child, risking limb and life. So we say that this person is a good parent, but was that free will?
“I’m stating a belief.. just like you do.. again, I’m doing nothing different than you all.. except when I state my believe, I actually include your OWN words to back up my claim.” – kathy
well, you at least include your own words to back up your claims about the validity of the bible….
and every time I respond to you, i copy and paste your own words…. as do many of the others here
this is one of your problems that has already been pointed out – your hypocrisy.
in light of things like this, you are not taken seriously, you are not intimidating, and when you insist on tangential points like this at the expense of the bigger conversation you come off as slightly annoying like an obnoxious child – but you don’t have to be and we all wait and hope that at some point you’ll interact with everyone else in a more adult-like manner.
Well, sure, we all have influences, both internal and external.
I guess in that sense we don’t have “absolute freewill.” I guess ryan is right, it depends on how we’re defining it.
I guess I’ll say “limited freewill” as we do have influences, but I do not agree that each decision we make was the only decision we could make.
I think in the common usage, we do in deed have freewill. If we’re getting extremely specific, then of course we have influences and some limitations.
as you pointed out dave, i am free to choose how i act or choose what I say. I may not always be able to choose what i think, but think in many instances were are free to ‘will’ that as well.
“Right, but the same mind that chooses between yogurt or ice cream is the same one that chooses between any two options.”
Yes, quite true. But that choosing between going to the beach or the mountains was not much different than Ryan’s dog deciding whether to eat or chase a ball. It was about which decision was going to be the most rewarding. So, my point is that you are still making this decision based on biological urgings. David Engleman states that our reality depends on what our biology is up to. And based on at least 10 years of independent research, I’d say that our biology is based on what our environment is up to. Dr. Robert Sapolsy states that the environment and our genes are intertwined (nurture/nature).
So, my point is that you are still making this decision based on biological urgings.
This does not explain why I’ve chosen to do less rewarding things sometimes because it was the right thing to do verses something more rewarding – at least in the immediacy.
“This does not explain why I’ve chosen to do less rewarding things sometimes because it was the right thing to do verses something more rewarding – at least in the immediacy.”
OK, so why did you decide to do a less rewarding thing verses immediate gratification? Anticipation is more rewarding that the thing itself. So did you decide to to the less rewarding thing because ultimately it had a rewarding outcome long-term?
if there is no freewill, then no one can be held responsible for anything… except those who hold them responsible anyways do so because they cant help themselves either.
If i think i have freewill, when i do not, then it’s not my fault I think that way – I just do. i was made to or nurtured to.
I can buy off on limited freewill, in that we make choices, but we are also influenced a great deal by many things – biology, environment, etc.
“that’s not a very nice thing to want for another person….I mean that’s pretty mean” – Portal, you can’t blame me for how your god works. It’s pretty mean to have kids shredded by bears for calling a bald guy bald, but that’s just the kind of mysterious ways your god works in.
Did you know that cowbells actually damage cows’ hearing? We can put a man on the moon, but we can’t we make quieter cowbells?
So did you decide to to the less rewarding thing because ultimately it had a rewarding outcome long-term?
It did not, unless you count the self-respect of honoring a prior commitment more rewarding. But it didn’t really even leave me with that. I didn’t have any “feel good” about it in the long-term.
If you are attempting to prove to me that there is no freewill based on this, though, I think I’ll have to do some more study on the matter. I’m inclined to lean toward some form of compatibilism at the moment, but haven’t reached what I think is a final conclusion on it.
“So did you decide to to the less rewarding thing because ultimately it had a rewarding outcome long-term?”
I am certain this is the case most of the time, but i wouldnt say it is all the time. When someone does something they thing is right to stranger, it could be that you do so at your own expense. If it;s a stranger and person you think you’ll never see again, then what is to be gained in the long term or short term?
the satisfaction of doing good? maybe, but then you also have the disappointment of whatever it was that you gave up. You make a choice and any decision you make will have it’s share of consequences and rewards – they typically always do.
I’m not sure how influences negate freewill… unless freewill means “free of influences,” but I think it means “free to choose,” as in not hardwired in every action like a machine.
“When men and women go to war, they have to go through boot camp to have their brains rewired to kill another person — to dehumanize them”
I’ve been through basic training. some people do appear to be brainwashed, but i can assure you that i was not. was pulling the trigger in combat a hard thing to do? no. but look at nature and the history of our species – it is violent. I think we are inherently violent – yet we have someone begun to overcome that predisposition in many cases, no?
would I kill or try to kill as freely outside of combat. absolutely not. But then, even when i was willing to kill in combat, i wasnt willing to torture.
I do agree that there are influences, but there is also still a choice, and we are free to choose in line with those influences or against them.
“If you ask anyone, what is morality based on? These are the two factors that always come out: One is reciprocity, … a sense of fairness, and the other one is empathy and compassion.”
— Frans de Waal —
Finding Truth 
wow….that’s not a very nice thing to want for another person….I mean that’s pretty mean
do know what would would help? more cowbell….
good night, live long and prosper
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Aah, Portal, the More Cowbell card. Well played.
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The conversation about free will has been interesting to read. A lot of thought-provoking comments. Generally speaking, when believers are talking about free will they generally mean the choice between “good and evil”. “Sin” or evil is up to interpretation based on their belief system. So, as Ryan said, the concept of free will is complicated. A dog might be torn over which instinct to satisfy, chasing a ball (prey instinct) or eating, but he/she’s biology is trying to determine which of those two will be the most rewarding (dopamine).
I also think that sometimes free will gets mixed up with discipline and indoctrination. We can train a dog to not poop in the house, so the dog learns to go outside instead. He will be discipline (usually in the form of pain or scolding) if he poops in the house. Choosing to poop outside — was that free will?
When believers decide to remain celibate until they get married, is that free will or indoctrination? The individual may have had his/her brain wired to think that having sex outside of marriage goes against his god’s will and that going against god’s will may cost him a reward of eternal life.
I haven’t watched Harris’ clip yet, but I have read a good bit of his opinion on the subject, and I tend to agree with him. Sure, we can choose to not do harm to another, but not always. Both men and women have a gene dubbed the “warrior” gene, but it’s a romantic way of saying an aggression gene. It gets passed from the mother’s X chromosome, and the gene has a greater likelihood of being turned on in males depending on the environment. Was that free will?
Studies show that females subjected to mild chronic stress during gestation produce offspring with larger hindbrains (brutish) and smaller forebrains (executive function). So they come out with fight or flight behavior. Was that free will?
In triplets or other multiple births, males who are situated between females will have a stronger sex drive because of hormones, giving them a much stronger urge to procreate with multiple females to pass on their genes. Is that free will?
Children who experience early damage in the prefrontal cortex tend to never completely develop social or moral reasoning. Individuals with adult-acquired damage are usually aware of proper social and moral conduct, but are unable to apply such behaviors. The forehead is the most common place for injury, and considering that every 15 seconds someone sustains a traumatic brain injury in America should give us pause. According to the Brain Injury Association, traumatic brain injury is the most frequent cause of disability and death among children and adolescents.
cont.
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Then there is indoctrination of a culture. So for example, Moses hears god telling him to gather an army and go out a kill every man, boy and married women in other tribes that don’t bow to Yahweh, but keep the young girls for themselves as sex slaves. They are also commanded to split the plunder among themselves. Was that free will? When men and women go to war, they have to go through boot camp to have their brains rewired to kill another person — to dehumanize them. When they dehumanize another person after intense religious indoctrination, is their behavior free will?
Has anyone ever read the studies on the Stanford Experiment? Was that free will?
When someone is in power for too long, studies show their brain changes which profoundly affects their behavior. Is that free will?
Two thought provoking videos I recommend are “The Brain and the Law”. Neuroscientist, David Eagleman considers some emerging questions relating to law and neuroscience, challenging long-held assumptions in criminality and punishment. He discusses the concept of “free will”.
— http://youtu.be/EREriwV71mA —
and a Stanford lecture by world renown psychologist Philip Zimbardo. He reveals parallels of the Stanford Experiment and the abuses by military guards at Abu Ghraib. He also explains how the environment can highly influence decision making.
— http://youtu.be/cMoZ3ThW6x0 —
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“The only one around here Kathy, who’s intimidated, is you when Paul Williams shows up!”
so true arch.
Kathy knows that I can discredit her using her own words,
something she just claimed no one does,,
I’ve been doing it for 6yrs.
she actually stopped responding to me about 3 yrs ago,
because she knows she can never get away with anything,
I know what she’s going to say before she even says it,
therefore, no such thing as free will. lol.
I stalk her on the internet because so many well meaning atheists, liberals and Mormons get in to honest debates with her, unaware of Kathy’s real motive, not realizing that every one of the thousands of questions Kathy asks, has already been answered before.
and it’s just a lot of fun, too.
Portal, are you a good looking man?
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I have a hard time with the notion of determinism vs. freewill. I’d like to think I have freely made some of the choices I’ve made in life. I’d like to think I’m free to choose yogurt or ice cream, coffee or tea, the mountains or the beach. At the same time I recognize there are all sorts of things that influence my thinking at any given time such that the events that happen preceding a any decision contribute to whatever choice I might make. So then I wonder if it’s really freewill at all.
LikeLike
and pardon me, but I would also like to share a word from Kathy’s pastor,
in his ” daily devotional” for today,
his desperate pleas for money, in all caps:
“THE ONLY WAY SATAN CAN NEUTRALIZE IN ANY WAY OUR WORK HERE, SLOW IT DOWN, OR SILENCE ME IN ANY WAY IS THROUGH OUR FINANCES! I DON’T NEED MILLIONS OF DOLLARS SINCE LIVEPRAYER DOESN’T OWN BUILDINGS, PRIVATE JETS, LUXURY CARS, MANSIONS, NOR DO I LIVE LIKE A HOLLYWOOD CELEBRITY. IN A MODERN DAY FISHES AND LOAVES MIRACLE, GOD USES THE $65,000 WE REQUIRE EACH MONTH TO ENABLE US TO MINISTER TO THE 2.5 MILLION PLUS PEOPLE WORLDWIDE WE REACH DAILY ONLINE AND OUR NIGHTLY TV AUDIENCE OF APX 300,000.
FOR LESS THAN $800,000 A YEAR, THE APX BUDGET OF A LOCAL CHURCH WITH LESS THAN 1,000 MEMBERS MEETING ONCE A WEEK, LIVEPRAYER IS NOT ONLY ABLE TO IMPACT LIVES AND SAVE SOULS WORLDWIDE EACH DAY, BUT USE OUR PROVEN MINISTRY VEHICLES ONLINE AND ON TV TO HELP LEAD OUR NATION BACK TO GOD AND HIS TRUTH BEFORE WE SEE THE FINAL WRATH AND JUDGMENT OF ALMIGHTY GOD POURED OUT ON OUR LAND FOR OUR SIN AND REBELLION!
TODAY, I AM COMING TO YOU AND ASKING YOU TO PRAY ABOUT WHAT YOU CAN DO TO HELP ME. I AM ONLY ASKING TO KEEP IN PLACE THE EXISTING MINSITRY TOOLS ONLINE AND ON TV WE REQUIRE TO FULFILL HIS WORK HERE EACH DAY. WE DESPERATELY NEED TO COVER THE $53,000 FROM SEPTEMBER THAT IS CRITICAL TO OUR ONGOING OPERATIONS. $25,000 OF THAT BRINGS OUR INTERNET OPERATIONS CURRENT THROUGH THE END OF SEPTEMBER, AND THE OTHER $28,000 IS DESPERATELY NEEDED TODAY TO INSURE WE DON’T LOSE OUR TV CONTRACT IN CHICAGO THAT I BELIEVE IS CRITICAL TO OUR WORK IN THESE FINAL DAYS OF 2014!!!”
Kathy, I really should thank you for the many years of laughter you and your cult leader have given me.
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“I’d like to think I’m free to choose yogurt or ice cream, coffee or tea, the mountains or the beach.”
Right, but those really have nothing to do with morality, do they? When we are discussing free will, isn’t it generally about morality, or our interpretation of morality? We have studies showing that empathy is intrinsic and our mirror neurons tend to kick in around age 4 when we can recognize ourselves in the mirror. But child development studies have shown that even babies show empathy and recognize injustice towards others. So, was that free will or was it intrinsic, instinct?
All of this is very humbling. It shows us that when we make prosocial decisions, we really can’t take a whole lot of credit for it. We are getting rewarded, neurologically, to do good towards others, and ourselves. But what drives us to do good towards others is based on our survival instinct and our empathy. An infant who smiles and makes eye contact more often has a greater likelihood of having his/her emotional and physical needs met. A normal parent is flooded with oxytocin and vasopressin (bonding hormones), and this parent(s) becomes a slave to the child, risking limb and life. So we say that this person is a good parent, but was that free will?
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Paul, I concur with that article.
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“I’m stating a belief.. just like you do.. again, I’m doing nothing different than you all.. except when I state my believe, I actually include your OWN words to back up my claim.” – kathy
well, you at least include your own words to back up your claims about the validity of the bible….
and every time I respond to you, i copy and paste your own words…. as do many of the others here
this is one of your problems that has already been pointed out – your hypocrisy.
in light of things like this, you are not taken seriously, you are not intimidating, and when you insist on tangential points like this at the expense of the bigger conversation you come off as slightly annoying like an obnoxious child – but you don’t have to be and we all wait and hope that at some point you’ll interact with everyone else in a more adult-like manner.
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thanks neuro, i do, too.
I’m going to try to be more civil and topical with you guys.
looks like I might be here for a while. lol
here’s a chuckle for everyone.
https://twitter.com/kayms99/status/517434110646964225
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Right, but the same mind that chooses between yogurt or ice cream is the same one that chooses between any two options.
I’m not making an argument for freewill here, I just find the concept of determinism hard to wrap my mind around.
I’m listening to that first video you linked now.
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Well, sure, we all have influences, both internal and external.
I guess in that sense we don’t have “absolute freewill.” I guess ryan is right, it depends on how we’re defining it.
I guess I’ll say “limited freewill” as we do have influences, but I do not agree that each decision we make was the only decision we could make.
I think in the common usage, we do in deed have freewill. If we’re getting extremely specific, then of course we have influences and some limitations.
as you pointed out dave, i am free to choose how i act or choose what I say. I may not always be able to choose what i think, but think in many instances were are free to ‘will’ that as well.
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Paul, that is funny since everyone here knows more about chrsitianity than kathy. she is an enigma.
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“Right, but the same mind that chooses between yogurt or ice cream is the same one that chooses between any two options.”
Yes, quite true. But that choosing between going to the beach or the mountains was not much different than Ryan’s dog deciding whether to eat or chase a ball. It was about which decision was going to be the most rewarding. So, my point is that you are still making this decision based on biological urgings. David Engleman states that our reality depends on what our biology is up to. And based on at least 10 years of independent research, I’d say that our biology is based on what our environment is up to. Dr. Robert Sapolsy states that the environment and our genes are intertwined (nurture/nature).
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why would an influence negate freewill?
If you’re wanting freewill to only mean making decisions in a vacuum, then i think that definition is much more than it was intended to be.
We have choices and we make choices. My fate is not predetermined – except death, but not the how or why.
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So, my point is that you are still making this decision based on biological urgings.
This does not explain why I’ve chosen to do less rewarding things sometimes because it was the right thing to do verses something more rewarding – at least in the immediacy.
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“This does not explain why I’ve chosen to do less rewarding things sometimes because it was the right thing to do verses something more rewarding – at least in the immediacy.”
OK, so why did you decide to do a less rewarding thing verses immediate gratification? Anticipation is more rewarding that the thing itself. So did you decide to to the less rewarding thing because ultimately it had a rewarding outcome long-term?
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if there is no freewill, then no one can be held responsible for anything… except those who hold them responsible anyways do so because they cant help themselves either.
If i think i have freewill, when i do not, then it’s not my fault I think that way – I just do. i was made to or nurtured to.
I can buy off on limited freewill, in that we make choices, but we are also influenced a great deal by many things – biology, environment, etc.
LikeLike
“that’s not a very nice thing to want for another person….I mean that’s pretty mean” – Portal, you can’t blame me for how your god works. It’s pretty mean to have kids shredded by bears for calling a bald guy bald, but that’s just the kind of mysterious ways your god works in.
Did you know that cowbells actually damage cows’ hearing? We can put a man on the moon, but we can’t we make quieter cowbells?
LikeLike
So did you decide to to the less rewarding thing because ultimately it had a rewarding outcome long-term?
It did not, unless you count the self-respect of honoring a prior commitment more rewarding. But it didn’t really even leave me with that. I didn’t have any “feel good” about it in the long-term.
If you are attempting to prove to me that there is no freewill based on this, though, I think I’ll have to do some more study on the matter. I’m inclined to lean toward some form of compatibilism at the moment, but haven’t reached what I think is a final conclusion on it.
LikeLike
“So did you decide to to the less rewarding thing because ultimately it had a rewarding outcome long-term?”
I am certain this is the case most of the time, but i wouldnt say it is all the time. When someone does something they thing is right to stranger, it could be that you do so at your own expense. If it;s a stranger and person you think you’ll never see again, then what is to be gained in the long term or short term?
the satisfaction of doing good? maybe, but then you also have the disappointment of whatever it was that you gave up. You make a choice and any decision you make will have it’s share of consequences and rewards – they typically always do.
I’m not sure how influences negate freewill… unless freewill means “free of influences,” but I think it means “free to choose,” as in not hardwired in every action like a machine.
LikeLike
“When men and women go to war, they have to go through boot camp to have their brains rewired to kill another person — to dehumanize them”
I’ve been through basic training. some people do appear to be brainwashed, but i can assure you that i was not. was pulling the trigger in combat a hard thing to do? no. but look at nature and the history of our species – it is violent. I think we are inherently violent – yet we have someone begun to overcome that predisposition in many cases, no?
would I kill or try to kill as freely outside of combat. absolutely not. But then, even when i was willing to kill in combat, i wasnt willing to torture.
I do agree that there are influences, but there is also still a choice, and we are free to choose in line with those influences or against them.
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