In fact, I think that’s the very thing that I’m arguing when I say we don’t have a choice in whether or not to sin[according to scripture]. That has been determined for the individual. In Christian theology they shoot themselves in the foot when they say we’re born sinners yet can choose not to sin.
Ruth, determinism denies the possibility of free will. I cannot see this as being totally true.
Then I don’t think we disagree. I’m fully aware, because of my work with addicts, that we are heavily influenced by our environment, nurture, chemicals, etc. But I also have seen these things overcome. I believe there is some choice in this.
Ruth, you should know by now that in Christianity, it’s all about picking and choosing the verses that support your particular belief. As we’ve been discussing to great extent on this blog, the bible is full of contradictions, but believers simply can’t (or won’t) see them.
Let’s take Ryan’s example of his dog as a simple illustration. His dog chose to chase after a ball rather than eat dinner. It was the dog’s choice to make — no one was forcing him to choose the ball. But if you could rewind, and all the circumstances were still the same: the dog’s love of chasing the ball, his current hunger level, the aroma of his food, etc, would he still make the choice of playing with the ball, or would he choose the food?
I see your point here.
Hence that saying ‘if I could go back knowing what I know now’.
nan, exactly,
everytime I get into a discussion with a xtain, they deny god ordained slavery, murder and rape.
when I reference the verses, they say that was man’s free will, not god’s orders,
which clearly it states, “and the lord spoke to moses”.
it is truly insane.
Kathy will go so far as to say that the slaves actually wanted to be slaves.
no one can tell a lie quite like a xtian,
but it’s the only way they can rationalize the nonsense.
oh, and speaking of nonsense, I caught this movie this morning on hbo,
this is really effed up.
whenever I have heard the term freewill used, I never thought that it meant “choices made without zero influence,” but rather, “the ability to choose.”
Again, if we’re saying that freewill is only a choice made in a vacuum, then there is no such thing.
I dont think that’s what freewill is, but I dont feel like arguing over terms, so I think whatever we do is more like, we have the ability to act or not act, and to speak or not speak, even while still heavily influenced by multiple factors – in other words, our futures are not pre-written.
we’re not really talking about the either 1) all decisions are made in a vacuum – because I dont think that was the original intention of the word ‘freewill’ and 2) no one really chooses anything but only acts in the one and only way that they can act.
I think there is middle ground, the ground I that i always understood freewill to be, but again, if freewill is much more involved than that, then fine, but people still make choices – even if heavily influenced.
“It was easier to do this because….(whatever)” – I can get that, but that doesn’t mean that couldn’t have and shouldn’t have gone the tougher route. My disdain for such arguments doesnt not even mean that I always do what’s right all the time, despite consequences – because i certainly do not.
I can admit that I act out of selfish motivations most of the time, and maybe all the time, but this is an argument of convenience and I think no better than those who say that they only act out of selflessness…
one will point to the parts that may be pleasing to the person, while the other will only point out the parts that may be dissatisfying. I think very little is truly that cut and dry but that most things are a combination of good and bad, positive and negative.
I have the ability to make choices. I have changed my behavior over years.
I still dont see how influences negate decisions, although i can see how they influence them.
This almost seems like the middle school lunch table discussion about america not really being free because we cannot do whatever we want whenever we want – well yeah, that’s true, but then the definition of a free society is being stretched to mean something it was never intended.
i’m fine saying that we have freewill, because I am not forced to behave a certain, predetermined way, without any ability to alter any course of action.
Nan, I agree with what both you and Nate wrote. No matter what our ‘choices’ may be, they have been determined by other factors.
Here’s an example with regard to our brains being hardwired for xenophobia.
” Some brain-imaging studies have appeared to support this view in a particularly discouraging way. There is a structure deep inside the brain called the amygdala, which plays a key role in fear and aggression, and experiments have shown that when subjects are presented with a face of someone from a different race, the amygdala gets metabolically active—aroused, alert, ready for action. This happens even when the face is presented subliminally, which is to say, so rapidly that the subject does not consciously see it.
More recent studies, however, should mitigate this pessimism. Test a person who has a lot of experience with people of different races, and the amygdala does not activate. Or, as in a wonderful experiment by Susan Fiske, of Princeton University, subtly bias the subject beforehand to think of people as individuals rather than as members of a group, and the amygdala does not budge.”
Kathy will go so far as to say that the slaves actually wanted to be slaves.
Actually, this is a fairly common Christian belief. That slavery was God’s provision for people to work off their debt and they sold themselves into slavery for this purpose. They forget the God-ordained taking of slaves:
43Thou shalt not rule over him with rigour; but shalt fear thy God. 44Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. 45Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. Leviticus 25
It’s been really interesting to read all the comments on free will. I think the big question is, given all the factors, could we really do anything differently? I guess to some degree it does not matter because we will never be able to reproduce a choice made at a particular moment along with all of the factors including our own memories.
Here is one relevant paragraph out of the book “God’s Debris”:
The brain is composed of cells and neurons and chemicals and pathways and electrical activity that all conform to physical laws. When part of your brain is stimulated in one
specific way, could it respond any way it wants, or would it always respond in one specific way?
This is a very low level way of looking at it. Like looking at a computer’s binary code. Here’s an interesting question: Could we ever give a computer enough thinking capacity that it could one day make a decision on it’s own? Or would the decision always rely on the circumstances, inputs, etc?
this sounds like my old middle school lunch table rants about how a free society wasnt really free because you literally couldnt do anything you wanted…
yeah, well, that’s true, but it’s also stretching ‘free society’ to mean something different than it was intended.
everyone is influenced, yet we still choose. How could you even test such a thing? find one of those people who have complete short term memory loss like what’sherface on Adam Sandler’s 50 first dates?
put that person in the exact same simulations every day for years and see if that person ever chooses differently?
If there is no choice at all, then I suppose fate and destiny arent out the window. If everything that happened was always going to happen, then everything that will happen will have to happen, then everything is mapped out.
even these discussions. our agreements and disagreements. Surely you all arent saying that we’re all helpless and have to act the way we act and there’s nothing we can do about it?
that the murderer isnt really at fault, and that that executioner is also predetermined to execute the murderer who couldnt help but murder. This isnt what we’re talking about it, is it?
Ewwww, Paul. That video is stomach-turning. I don’t have any objections if a girl (or guy) wants to remain “pure” until their wedding day, but to do it for religious (i.e., Christian) reasons? Just more manipulation and brainwashing.
Free will is the ability of agents to make choices unimpeded by certain factors. Factors of historical concern have included metaphysical constraints (such as logical, nomological, or theological determinism),[1] physical constraints (such as chains or imprisonment), social constraints (such as threat of punishment or censure), and mental constraints (such as compulsions or phobias, neurological disorders, or genetic predispositions).
I think it largely depends on what your definition of freewill is.
If there is no choice at all, then I suppose fate and destiny arent out the window. If everything that happened was always going to happen, then everything that will happen will have to happen, then everything is mapped out.
William, I may be way off-base, but I don’t think fate and destiny is what we’re talking about here. IMO, we’re discussing individual choices and decisions … or how we would react to the external things that happen in our lives. Whether or not these external things are predestined is, IMO, a whole other subject.
But I could be wrong. 😉
Brainwashing, manipulation, and teaching are all different things. I believe parents are teaching their children what is right or wrong. Of course, then the discussion becomes “what is right and what is wrong?” It’s never-ending.
how is it that people like us (on this blog) left the fold, when everything in our environment predisposed us to stay?
But not everything. I can’t speak for you William, but even though I was raised religiously, I was also raised to ask questions and think for myself. I was taught to honor the values of honesty and the responsibility to try to see things clearly, whether we like them or not. While my parents used that within a religious framework, I can easily see how it “predisposed” me to skepticism. It actually turned out to be a perfect primer.
I loved your middle school lunch room example, btw 🙂
If every action a person does is only done based upon the events and influences in that person’s life, then every event in history is set and predetermined. It may not be fate written out by a creator, but it’s close enough, because we have no real say in anything.
I dont believe that. I dont think it makes sense. I realize we’re influenced, but each of has overcome our religious influences if nothing else.
I think we can choose. I think we do choose. It may not be between every possible choice our out of knowledge of all possible outcomes, but i it’s still a choice.
Perfectly free – of course not, but we’re free to choose with what info we have. It’s a choice. act this way or act that or dont act at all. It’s free in the sense that we are not forced to a single action.
that the murderer isnt really at fault, and that that executioner is also predetermined to execute the murderer who couldnt help but murder. This isnt what we’re talking about it, is it?
No… and yes. 🙂
I don’t think it would be right to argue that no one has personal responsibility, but I do lean toward thinking that if you could replay an event over and over again, say a dozen times, then the same event would probably happen.
Let’s say Bob murders Jerry. Bob’s motivations are complex, the timing of his opportunity also has a lot to do with his decision to murder Jerry. If we could replay that moment again and again, he’d likely still murder Jerry, because everything, every detail in the chain of events and circumstances leading to this moment are identical. Even if there were a moment right before the attack where Bob asked himself if he should go through it, whatever reason pushed him over the edge would still be there when it’s replayed.
But I don’t think we could use this line of thinking to say that Bob should somehow be innocent of his crime. Instead, maybe we should try to focus on what caused him to commit the act and try to correct that. In fact, incarceration or rehabilitation will be a factor that influences whether or not Bob ever does anything like this again. So people are definitely changeable. But if you isolate a particular moment from their lives, could it really have ever gone a different way?
Using that definition, how can there even BE such a thing as free will? Do any of us make choices that are not influenced by other factors?
It kind of sounds like that’s what some here are saying – the we don’t really have freewill; that it is an illusion. I may be misunderstanding what’s being said. That is entirely possible.
well, nate, point taken, but do you have siblings and other family members who were also taught like you? did they all leave the faith? did your parents?
what’s interesting is if there is no real choice at all, then this whole discussion is pointless, yet we cant help but have it anyways. Even if you’re right, and I never come around, and you realize it’ snot my fault for coming around, you may not be able to help yourself for being annoyed that I haven’t come around to seeing your way, when you know that I cant help but stick to this position…
I think we’re taking influences and saying that they unfairly alter or influence our decisions. I think they influence us, but i dont care so much about fairness.
making one choice may be very difficult, like leaving a faith even if that meant leaving family, but doesnt mean it’s impossible. we cant go back, like dave said, and redo what we’ve done – so in a sense there’s no way to test this.
the tests that Neuro brought up show that people are influenced. While many of the reactions could be predicted given the influence, I doubt those conducting the study that their sample group represents 100% of the population. While going against the grain is unpopular, it doesnt mean that it;s impossible.
sitting on nails or sitting on pillows is an easy choice (doesnt mean there is no freewill, just because one choice outweighs another), but many things in life end being more like sitting on this bed of nails or that bed of glass – or laying on these pillows or those pillows…
It seems like you’re all saying that if a guy sat on the yellow pillow, then he’d always sit on the yellow pillow over the blue pillow. I disagree.
many times our influences pull us in different ways yes? Our influences are part of the decision process, they do not negate it. How could you even have a decision to make without influences or external factors?
I think it’s like saying that volcano dont erupt, it’s the lava – I think that a volcano without lava is just a mountain. the lava is part of the volcano. Our influences are part of our decisions, but only part and not the whole.
Finding Truth 
In fact, I think that’s the very thing that I’m arguing when I say we don’t have a choice in whether or not to sin[according to scripture]. That has been determined for the individual. In Christian theology they shoot themselves in the foot when they say we’re born sinners yet can choose not to sin.
LikeLike
Ruth, determinism denies the possibility of free will. I cannot see this as being totally true.
Then I don’t think we disagree. I’m fully aware, because of my work with addicts, that we are heavily influenced by our environment, nurture, chemicals, etc. But I also have seen these things overcome. I believe there is some choice in this.
LikeLike
And when I say ‘my work with addicts’ this is not in a professional capacity. This is completely anecdotal and observational.
LikeLike
Ruth, you should know by now that in Christianity, it’s all about picking and choosing the verses that support your particular belief. As we’ve been discussing to great extent on this blog, the bible is full of contradictions, but believers simply can’t (or won’t) see them.
LikeLike
Let’s take Ryan’s example of his dog as a simple illustration. His dog chose to chase after a ball rather than eat dinner. It was the dog’s choice to make — no one was forcing him to choose the ball. But if you could rewind, and all the circumstances were still the same: the dog’s love of chasing the ball, his current hunger level, the aroma of his food, etc, would he still make the choice of playing with the ball, or would he choose the food?
I see your point here.
Hence that saying ‘if I could go back knowing what I know now’.
LikeLike
nan, exactly,
everytime I get into a discussion with a xtain, they deny god ordained slavery, murder and rape.
when I reference the verses, they say that was man’s free will, not god’s orders,
which clearly it states, “and the lord spoke to moses”.
it is truly insane.
Kathy will go so far as to say that the slaves actually wanted to be slaves.
no one can tell a lie quite like a xtian,
but it’s the only way they can rationalize the nonsense.
oh, and speaking of nonsense, I caught this movie this morning on hbo,
this is really effed up.
http://virgintales.com/en/film/
LikeLike
whenever I have heard the term freewill used, I never thought that it meant “choices made without zero influence,” but rather, “the ability to choose.”
Again, if we’re saying that freewill is only a choice made in a vacuum, then there is no such thing.
I dont think that’s what freewill is, but I dont feel like arguing over terms, so I think whatever we do is more like, we have the ability to act or not act, and to speak or not speak, even while still heavily influenced by multiple factors – in other words, our futures are not pre-written.
we’re not really talking about the either 1) all decisions are made in a vacuum – because I dont think that was the original intention of the word ‘freewill’ and 2) no one really chooses anything but only acts in the one and only way that they can act.
I think there is middle ground, the ground I that i always understood freewill to be, but again, if freewill is much more involved than that, then fine, but people still make choices – even if heavily influenced.
“It was easier to do this because….(whatever)” – I can get that, but that doesn’t mean that couldn’t have and shouldn’t have gone the tougher route. My disdain for such arguments doesnt not even mean that I always do what’s right all the time, despite consequences – because i certainly do not.
I can admit that I act out of selfish motivations most of the time, and maybe all the time, but this is an argument of convenience and I think no better than those who say that they only act out of selflessness…
one will point to the parts that may be pleasing to the person, while the other will only point out the parts that may be dissatisfying. I think very little is truly that cut and dry but that most things are a combination of good and bad, positive and negative.
I have the ability to make choices. I have changed my behavior over years.
I still dont see how influences negate decisions, although i can see how they influence them.
This almost seems like the middle school lunch table discussion about america not really being free because we cannot do whatever we want whenever we want – well yeah, that’s true, but then the definition of a free society is being stretched to mean something it was never intended.
i’m fine saying that we have freewill, because I am not forced to behave a certain, predetermined way, without any ability to alter any course of action.
LikeLike
Nan, I agree with what both you and Nate wrote. No matter what our ‘choices’ may be, they have been determined by other factors.
Here’s an example with regard to our brains being hardwired for xenophobia.
http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/peace_among_primates
This changed behavior has also been seen among primates, i.e., baboons.
LikeLike
Kathy will go so far as to say that the slaves actually wanted to be slaves.
Actually, this is a fairly common Christian belief. That slavery was God’s provision for people to work off their debt and they sold themselves into slavery for this purpose. They forget the God-ordained taking of slaves:
43Thou shalt not rule over him with rigour; but shalt fear thy God. 44Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. 45Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. Leviticus 25
LikeLike
HA! So now we can honestly mean it when we tell someone they’re acting like a baboon!
LikeLike
It’s been really interesting to read all the comments on free will. I think the big question is, given all the factors, could we really do anything differently? I guess to some degree it does not matter because we will never be able to reproduce a choice made at a particular moment along with all of the factors including our own memories.
Here is one relevant paragraph out of the book “God’s Debris”:
This is a very low level way of looking at it. Like looking at a computer’s binary code. Here’s an interesting question: Could we ever give a computer enough thinking capacity that it could one day make a decision on it’s own? Or would the decision always rely on the circumstances, inputs, etc?
LikeLike
this sounds like my old middle school lunch table rants about how a free society wasnt really free because you literally couldnt do anything you wanted…
yeah, well, that’s true, but it’s also stretching ‘free society’ to mean something different than it was intended.
everyone is influenced, yet we still choose. How could you even test such a thing? find one of those people who have complete short term memory loss like what’sherface on Adam Sandler’s 50 first dates?
put that person in the exact same simulations every day for years and see if that person ever chooses differently?
If there is no choice at all, then I suppose fate and destiny arent out the window. If everything that happened was always going to happen, then everything that will happen will have to happen, then everything is mapped out.
even these discussions. our agreements and disagreements. Surely you all arent saying that we’re all helpless and have to act the way we act and there’s nothing we can do about it?
that the murderer isnt really at fault, and that that executioner is also predetermined to execute the murderer who couldnt help but murder. This isnt what we’re talking about it, is it?
LikeLike
I’ve found this interesting:
http://www.iep.utm.edu/freewill/
I haven’t finished reading it yet, and may need to read through it a few times.
LikeLike
Ewwww, Paul. That video is stomach-turning. I don’t have any objections if a girl (or guy) wants to remain “pure” until their wedding day, but to do it for religious (i.e., Christian) reasons? Just more manipulation and brainwashing.
LikeLike
This is what wiki has to say about free will:
An excerpt:
I think it largely depends on what your definition of freewill is.
LikeLike
“Just more manipulation and brainwashing.” – nan
what parents dont brainwash their children with “this is right and this is wrong?”
LikeLike
and I was predisposed to be christian. had devout parents, devout siblings. friends in the church. habit of going, etc.
how is it that people like us (on this blog) left the fold, when everything in our environment predisposed us to stay?
LikeLike
If there is no choice at all, then I suppose fate and destiny arent out the window. If everything that happened was always going to happen, then everything that will happen will have to happen, then everything is mapped out.
William, I may be way off-base, but I don’t think fate and destiny is what we’re talking about here. IMO, we’re discussing individual choices and decisions … or how we would react to the external things that happen in our lives. Whether or not these external things are predestined is, IMO, a whole other subject.
But I could be wrong. 😉
Brainwashing, manipulation, and teaching are all different things. I believe parents are teaching their children what is right or wrong. Of course, then the discussion becomes “what is right and what is wrong?” It’s never-ending.
LikeLike
But not everything. I can’t speak for you William, but even though I was raised religiously, I was also raised to ask questions and think for myself. I was taught to honor the values of honesty and the responsibility to try to see things clearly, whether we like them or not. While my parents used that within a religious framework, I can easily see how it “predisposed” me to skepticism. It actually turned out to be a perfect primer.
I loved your middle school lunch room example, btw 🙂
LikeLike
If every action a person does is only done based upon the events and influences in that person’s life, then every event in history is set and predetermined. It may not be fate written out by a creator, but it’s close enough, because we have no real say in anything.
I dont believe that. I dont think it makes sense. I realize we’re influenced, but each of has overcome our religious influences if nothing else.
I think we can choose. I think we do choose. It may not be between every possible choice our out of knowledge of all possible outcomes, but i it’s still a choice.
Perfectly free – of course not, but we’re free to choose with what info we have. It’s a choice. act this way or act that or dont act at all. It’s free in the sense that we are not forced to a single action.
LikeLike
No… and yes. 🙂
I don’t think it would be right to argue that no one has personal responsibility, but I do lean toward thinking that if you could replay an event over and over again, say a dozen times, then the same event would probably happen.
Let’s say Bob murders Jerry. Bob’s motivations are complex, the timing of his opportunity also has a lot to do with his decision to murder Jerry. If we could replay that moment again and again, he’d likely still murder Jerry, because everything, every detail in the chain of events and circumstances leading to this moment are identical. Even if there were a moment right before the attack where Bob asked himself if he should go through it, whatever reason pushed him over the edge would still be there when it’s replayed.
But I don’t think we could use this line of thinking to say that Bob should somehow be innocent of his crime. Instead, maybe we should try to focus on what caused him to commit the act and try to correct that. In fact, incarceration or rehabilitation will be a factor that influences whether or not Bob ever does anything like this again. So people are definitely changeable. But if you isolate a particular moment from their lives, could it really have ever gone a different way?
LikeLike
Am I being too simplistic to say that being able to make a choice isn’t necessarily freewill? I think in it’s purest form freewill would be:
the ability of agents to make choices unimpeded by any factors.
I don’t think that any of us believe this to be the case. So perhaps we’re conflating ‘choice’ with freewill?
LikeLike
Using that definition, how can there even BE such a thing as free will? Do any of us make choices that are not influenced by other factors?
LikeLike
Using that definition, how can there even BE such a thing as free will? Do any of us make choices that are not influenced by other factors?
It kind of sounds like that’s what some here are saying – the we don’t really have freewill; that it is an illusion. I may be misunderstanding what’s being said. That is entirely possible.
LikeLike
well, nate, point taken, but do you have siblings and other family members who were also taught like you? did they all leave the faith? did your parents?
what’s interesting is if there is no real choice at all, then this whole discussion is pointless, yet we cant help but have it anyways. Even if you’re right, and I never come around, and you realize it’ snot my fault for coming around, you may not be able to help yourself for being annoyed that I haven’t come around to seeing your way, when you know that I cant help but stick to this position…
I think we’re taking influences and saying that they unfairly alter or influence our decisions. I think they influence us, but i dont care so much about fairness.
making one choice may be very difficult, like leaving a faith even if that meant leaving family, but doesnt mean it’s impossible. we cant go back, like dave said, and redo what we’ve done – so in a sense there’s no way to test this.
the tests that Neuro brought up show that people are influenced. While many of the reactions could be predicted given the influence, I doubt those conducting the study that their sample group represents 100% of the population. While going against the grain is unpopular, it doesnt mean that it;s impossible.
sitting on nails or sitting on pillows is an easy choice (doesnt mean there is no freewill, just because one choice outweighs another), but many things in life end being more like sitting on this bed of nails or that bed of glass – or laying on these pillows or those pillows…
It seems like you’re all saying that if a guy sat on the yellow pillow, then he’d always sit on the yellow pillow over the blue pillow. I disagree.
many times our influences pull us in different ways yes? Our influences are part of the decision process, they do not negate it. How could you even have a decision to make without influences or external factors?
I think it’s like saying that volcano dont erupt, it’s the lava – I think that a volcano without lava is just a mountain. the lava is part of the volcano. Our influences are part of our decisions, but only part and not the whole.
LikeLike