“But if you isolate a particular moment from their lives, could it really have ever gone a different way?” – nate
is there a way to test that?
I’m thinking no.
I know for myself, there are many times I think hard about actions I take. Sometimes very trivial ones. I try to weigh the options and end up not sure which is better than the other. I make a choice that could have easily gone either way, almost like flipping a coin or rolling the dice.
as a child it was about going to the bathroom during the sermon. I was fascinated that god knew whether I was going to get up or whether i would sit and hold it. How did he know what i was going to do before I did it, and before i knew what I was going to do? I wasnt sure if i’d hold it or get. I wasnt about to pee my pants, so this is one example of rolling the dice. I didnt always get up and I didnt always stay put.
Now, take the murderer you were talking about and if we were able to replay each even, in exactly the same way a dozen times, we might all be comfortable in saying he’d do the same thing every time. What if replayed it 1000 times or a million or a billion? would you be as sure that there would be no deviation if we could replay it that many times?
To me, it there were a single deviation in behavior, however long it took to see it, then we’d have choice.
that’s what i’m saying.
I’d love to see Kathy screaming at all the gays about their pride and egos.
Sarasota is mostly butch dykes anyway,
Kathy would blend right in.
“how is it that people like us (on this blog) left the fold, when everything in our environment predisposed us to stay?”
William, studies showed that most people are followers. They flock like sheep. There is a small percentage who don’t. But that appears to be predetermined in our genetic makeup.
“Their research suggests that humans flock like sheep and birds, subconsciously following a minority of individuals. The study at the University of Leeds shows that it takes a minority of just five per cent to influence a crowd’s direction – and that the other 95 per cent follow without realising it.”
Then there’s cerebral automatism, related to the learning process, which gives the majority of people the propensity to line up to majority opinion even when it contradicts evidence. This would help explain, at least in part, why Nate’s siblings continue to follow tradition. i realize there are other factors involved, but my point is that I think your decision to come out from among them had more to do with your genetic makeup (and other influences) besides just making a choice to do so.
You have clearly demonstrated in your comments that you are not a follower. I asked questions a lot when I was a kid. Questions that took my parents out of their comfort zone. But asking questions came at a cost to my well being so I stopped. That propensity to continue to ask questions started again in adulthood. My siblings never questioned. Why not? We me?
“William, leaving “god” out of it, why do you think you got up one time and stayed put on another time?” – nan
I really dont know. For those instances, it was use the restroom, or wait. If i used it, then i got some relief and got to stretch my legs. if i held it, it wasnt really painful or too uncomfortable and got to listen to teh sermon and avoid being a disturbance – and although my parents never said anything about it, i always assumed they’d prefer us kids stay seated.
the point, i guess, is that many decisions we are like this – each with their own set of pros and cons that we often feel are equal. It could have and often did go either way. I dont see how such choices are predetermined.
I think bigger decisions are similar just more or less complex, depending on how you view it. we weigh the pros and cons depending on our influences and decide. I get the influence, but i think there’s so much influences acting in very different directions that is is too simplistic to say that every action is the the only action you have taken given the circumstances. I think we can predict but i dont think those predictions would be 100% certain – therefore not set in stone, therefore some form of choice, what i call freewill, but may start calling limited freewill.
I do agree that we are influenced. sorry to sound like a broken record.
I do imagine that our genes play a huge role, and that every encounter we have influences one way or another on us.
I know we’re limited by our knowledge, etc…
did you choose to quit asking your parents, or were you essentially forced to by the circumstances?
I will say that I dont we are free to choose our belief. I’m talking actions. I didnt choose to disbelieve in religion, that happened over time as a result of my efforts. I chose to investigate, but was powerless to the conclusion i reached in so doing.
“did you choose to quit asking your parents, or were you essentially forced to by the circumstances?”
Both. My choice was based on what I mentioned earlier. My well being. Asking questions that seemed like a form of rebellion was discouraged. It meant that I could get spanked and/or sent to my room. Children tend to have more of a voice today then when I was a kid.
“I chose to investigate, but was powerless to the conclusion i reached in so doing.”
Same here, William, but my genetic makeup played a major roll in giving me the determination (a stubborn streak?) to do so. Unlike Nate’s parents who encouraged questioning, mine did not. So where did this determination come from when doing so could come at a cost to my well being? I didn’t like pat answers. For me, I found it more rewarding to understand than to get acknowledged (as in acceptance) by my parents (and a god).
but bladder control isnt really what we’re talking about.
We can all hold our bladder to a degree. No one would argue that we lack freewill because we cant go on living if we stop breathing or after we let all of our blood out.
Do we have the ability to decide?
Are all of our actions predetermined by external factors? I think the answer is no, because our internal mind is also a factor at work. It may work in conjunction with many other factors, but we are not prisoners and forced to act one certain way based upon our external influences.
Paul may have been born gay and i may have been born a heterosexual, but i can choose to forego intercourse, despite my attraction to women and a healthy flow of testosterone. True, I have not made a lifelong commitment to celibacy, but i have gone extended periods of time by choice.
“I don’t have any objections if a girl (or guy) wants to remain ‘pure’ until their wedding day” – I can’t imagine anything funnier than two virgins in bed: “You wanna put that thing WHERE?!“
“what parents dont brainwash their children with ‘this is right and this is wrong?’” – Me. I raised my children with a single rule: “You can do anything you like, as long as you don’t hurt yourself or anyone else.” It was up to me to demonstrate how a particular behavior hurt someone – no “dassen’t-do’s” handed down from previous generations of archaeopterxes —
in regards to rearing children, I’m just not that critical of other parents. I think most do the best they can. Some use reason, some use religion, others use a form of both…
Something teaching your kid to be skeptical of god is bad and others think it’s right.
Saving oneself till marriage? I actually think it’s best, although i didnt do that. But with STD’s and what have you… Plus, if you test drive a car you cant afford, you may never really be happy with what you can.
one parent believes that god wants you stay pure and r another parent just think it makes sense…. i dont get worked up over it. Are they indoctrinating their kids? sure, but nonreligious parents can do that too. where’s the line? I dont want to draw it for others in most things.
“True, I have not made a lifelong commitment to celibacy, but i have gone extended periods of time by choice.”
William, my point, which I tried to make earlier is that all our actions are reward based in one form or another. Those who chose to be celibate, i.e., monks, are getting a neurochemical reward in other ways. People who are exceptionally religious tend to get more physically excited by looking at religious words than sexual words. These people also tend to have a low sex drive because they are getting dopamine and other reward neurotransmitters by other means. There’s an excellent BBC documentary titled “God On The Brain” that discusses this in one of their segments.
So what was the reason for you choosing to be celibate, if that’s not too personal? Did you see any possible reward in choosing celibacy for those times in your life?
All this talk about whether choice is an illusion or determined by outside factors made me think of this[warning, this clip contains subtitles which may offend some sensitivies; i.e. language, slang]:
I think I understand your point, and I agree that we seek rewards. But often, if not always, each decision is between a group of pros and cons on either side. Whatever we choose and whatever we do there is both pro and con associated with it.
I chose A becuase it had pros… I didnt chose B even though it had pros. It had cons too, but hen so did A.
When i was celibate? I was a viral high school and early college aged kid. I was very attracted to women, but was a believer at the time. I didnt masturbate or have sex.
This was not a period that extenuated years. and hopefully you’ll forgive how personal this is getting, but somewhere around 2 weeks was all i could manage. Now, i went more than 2 weeks without masturbating or having sex, but it was coming out at some point… you get me?
that’s basically why i stopped trying, because i felt like it was futile… and messier.
But yeah, i believed lust was wrong and I thought it took lust to masturbate, so I tried stopping.
and the dreams cause by the celibacy were quite vivid. I was lusting in my sleep.
Finding Truth 
“But if you isolate a particular moment from their lives, could it really have ever gone a different way?” – nate
is there a way to test that?
I’m thinking no.
I know for myself, there are many times I think hard about actions I take. Sometimes very trivial ones. I try to weigh the options and end up not sure which is better than the other. I make a choice that could have easily gone either way, almost like flipping a coin or rolling the dice.
as a child it was about going to the bathroom during the sermon. I was fascinated that god knew whether I was going to get up or whether i would sit and hold it. How did he know what i was going to do before I did it, and before i knew what I was going to do? I wasnt sure if i’d hold it or get. I wasnt about to pee my pants, so this is one example of rolling the dice. I didnt always get up and I didnt always stay put.
Now, take the murderer you were talking about and if we were able to replay each even, in exactly the same way a dozen times, we might all be comfortable in saying he’d do the same thing every time. What if replayed it 1000 times or a million or a billion? would you be as sure that there would be no deviation if we could replay it that many times?
To me, it there were a single deviation in behavior, however long it took to see it, then we’d have choice.
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hey Kathy, Sarasota gay pride Saturday Oct 18th.
http://sarasotapride.org/
why don’t you come on down and tell all the gay people about jeeezzzzuuussss!
see ya there.
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Paul, kathy looks down on pride.
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William, leaving “god” out of it, why do you think you got up one time and stayed put on another time?
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that’s what i’m saying.
I’d love to see Kathy screaming at all the gays about their pride and egos.
Sarasota is mostly butch dykes anyway,
Kathy would blend right in.
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“how is it that people like us (on this blog) left the fold, when everything in our environment predisposed us to stay?”
William, studies showed that most people are followers. They flock like sheep. There is a small percentage who don’t. But that appears to be predetermined in our genetic makeup.
http://www.leeds.ac.uk/news/article/397/sheep_in_human_clothing__scientists_reveal_our_flock_mentality
Then there’s cerebral automatism, related to the learning process, which gives the majority of people the propensity to line up to majority opinion even when it contradicts evidence. This would help explain, at least in part, why Nate’s siblings continue to follow tradition. i realize there are other factors involved, but my point is that I think your decision to come out from among them had more to do with your genetic makeup (and other influences) besides just making a choice to do so.
You have clearly demonstrated in your comments that you are not a follower. I asked questions a lot when I was a kid. Questions that took my parents out of their comfort zone. But asking questions came at a cost to my well being so I stopped. That propensity to continue to ask questions started again in adulthood. My siblings never questioned. Why not? We me?
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bladder control.
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I went to private Christian school until the 6th grade, when they told my parents I couldn’t come back because I was satanic. true story.
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“William, leaving “god” out of it, why do you think you got up one time and stayed put on another time?” – nan
I really dont know. For those instances, it was use the restroom, or wait. If i used it, then i got some relief and got to stretch my legs. if i held it, it wasnt really painful or too uncomfortable and got to listen to teh sermon and avoid being a disturbance – and although my parents never said anything about it, i always assumed they’d prefer us kids stay seated.
the point, i guess, is that many decisions we are like this – each with their own set of pros and cons that we often feel are equal. It could have and often did go either way. I dont see how such choices are predetermined.
I think bigger decisions are similar just more or less complex, depending on how you view it. we weigh the pros and cons depending on our influences and decide. I get the influence, but i think there’s so much influences acting in very different directions that is is too simplistic to say that every action is the the only action you have taken given the circumstances. I think we can predict but i dont think those predictions would be 100% certain – therefore not set in stone, therefore some form of choice, what i call freewill, but may start calling limited freewill.
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bladder control — which illustrates the point about external factors influencing one’s decision (free will). 😉
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Neuro,
I do agree that we are influenced. sorry to sound like a broken record.
I do imagine that our genes play a huge role, and that every encounter we have influences one way or another on us.
I know we’re limited by our knowledge, etc…
did you choose to quit asking your parents, or were you essentially forced to by the circumstances?
I will say that I dont we are free to choose our belief. I’m talking actions. I didnt choose to disbelieve in religion, that happened over time as a result of my efforts. I chose to investigate, but was powerless to the conclusion i reached in so doing.
LikeLike
“did you choose to quit asking your parents, or were you essentially forced to by the circumstances?”
Both. My choice was based on what I mentioned earlier. My well being. Asking questions that seemed like a form of rebellion was discouraged. It meant that I could get spanked and/or sent to my room. Children tend to have more of a voice today then when I was a kid.
“I chose to investigate, but was powerless to the conclusion i reached in so doing.”
Same here, William, but my genetic makeup played a major roll in giving me the determination (a stubborn streak?) to do so. Unlike Nate’s parents who encouraged questioning, mine did not. So where did this determination come from when doing so could come at a cost to my well being? I didn’t like pat answers. For me, I found it more rewarding to understand than to get acknowledged (as in acceptance) by my parents (and a god).
LikeLike
but bladder control isnt really what we’re talking about.
We can all hold our bladder to a degree. No one would argue that we lack freewill because we cant go on living if we stop breathing or after we let all of our blood out.
Do we have the ability to decide?
Are all of our actions predetermined by external factors? I think the answer is no, because our internal mind is also a factor at work. It may work in conjunction with many other factors, but we are not prisoners and forced to act one certain way based upon our external influences.
Paul may have been born gay and i may have been born a heterosexual, but i can choose to forego intercourse, despite my attraction to women and a healthy flow of testosterone. True, I have not made a lifelong commitment to celibacy, but i have gone extended periods of time by choice.
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Are those the times when you focused more on being a master debater?
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😉
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“I don’t have any objections if a girl (or guy) wants to remain ‘pure’ until their wedding day” – I can’t imagine anything funnier than two virgins in bed: “You wanna put that thing WHERE?!“
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nate, even when abstaining from women, i abstained from, uh.. debating…
not surprisingly, there are some build ups that cant be contained. Despite my efforts, life finds a way… even if it’s onto your own sheets…
it’s like the bladder discussion, the mind can only control the body so far.
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“what parents dont brainwash their children with ‘this is right and this is wrong?’” – Me. I raised my children with a single rule: “You can do anything you like, as long as you don’t hurt yourself or anyone else.” It was up to me to demonstrate how a particular behavior hurt someone – no “dassen’t-do’s” handed down from previous generations of archaeopterxes —
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in regards to rearing children, I’m just not that critical of other parents. I think most do the best they can. Some use reason, some use religion, others use a form of both…
Something teaching your kid to be skeptical of god is bad and others think it’s right.
Saving oneself till marriage? I actually think it’s best, although i didnt do that. But with STD’s and what have you… Plus, if you test drive a car you cant afford, you may never really be happy with what you can.
one parent believes that god wants you stay pure and r another parent just think it makes sense…. i dont get worked up over it. Are they indoctrinating their kids? sure, but nonreligious parents can do that too. where’s the line? I dont want to draw it for others in most things.
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“True, I have not made a lifelong commitment to celibacy, but i have gone extended periods of time by choice.”
William, my point, which I tried to make earlier is that all our actions are reward based in one form or another. Those who chose to be celibate, i.e., monks, are getting a neurochemical reward in other ways. People who are exceptionally religious tend to get more physically excited by looking at religious words than sexual words. These people also tend to have a low sex drive because they are getting dopamine and other reward neurotransmitters by other means. There’s an excellent BBC documentary titled “God On The Brain” that discusses this in one of their segments.
So what was the reason for you choosing to be celibate, if that’s not too personal? Did you see any possible reward in choosing celibacy for those times in your life?
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All this talk about whether choice is an illusion or determined by outside factors made me think of this[warning, this clip contains subtitles which may offend some sensitivies; i.e. language, slang]:
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And, yes, I laughed at the inappropriate and offensive subtitles. I am a terrible person.
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Neuro,
I think I understand your point, and I agree that we seek rewards. But often, if not always, each decision is between a group of pros and cons on either side. Whatever we choose and whatever we do there is both pro and con associated with it.
I chose A becuase it had pros… I didnt chose B even though it had pros. It had cons too, but hen so did A.
When i was celibate? I was a viral high school and early college aged kid. I was very attracted to women, but was a believer at the time. I didnt masturbate or have sex.
This was not a period that extenuated years. and hopefully you’ll forgive how personal this is getting, but somewhere around 2 weeks was all i could manage. Now, i went more than 2 weeks without masturbating or having sex, but it was coming out at some point… you get me?
that’s basically why i stopped trying, because i felt like it was futile… and messier.
But yeah, i believed lust was wrong and I thought it took lust to masturbate, so I tried stopping.
and the dreams cause by the celibacy were quite vivid. I was lusting in my sleep.
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The only thing I ever abstained from was abstention.
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The only thing I ever abstained from was abstention.
I don’t think they’re talkin’ about hittin’ the sauce, arch.
I am now thoroughly confused as to whether I have a choice about things or if I’m just deluded into thinking I have.
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