It would seem, Neuro – and I’m not agreeing nor disagreeing, merely asking – that you’re implying that absent a massive rewiring job, criminal rehabilitation is impossible?
Yes, it’s possible but not with everyone. The problem is, Arch, the criminal ‘justice’ system provides a massive reinforcement of that wiring (if it’s caused by wiring) when people go to prison. Violence experts state that prisons don’t rehabilitate, they make things worse and punishment does not prevent violence — again — it makes things worse.
(two minutes)
serve merely to keep the perpetrator out of society and away from potential victims
Watching the segment on TMS now, and as the late Walter Brennan used to say on The Guns Of Will Sonnet, “No brag, jest fact.”, I rarely feel pain. I also rarely get sick, except when the kids, and later the grandchildren, bring the flu home with them during the holiday vacations. So is that due to my frontal cortex blocking the pain signals? And couldn’t that prevent me from realizing when something is seriously wrong. like a marathon runner running on a sprained ankle, or (extreme example) a broken leg?
Arch, with regard to pain, you might want to read this link — it’s quite complex. But here’s an excerpt.
“If you step on that rock after you have a fight with your wife, your response may be very different than it would if you had just won the lottery. Your feelings about the experience may be tainted if the last time you stepped on a rock, your foot became infected. If you stepped on a rock once before and nothing terrible happened to you, you may recover more quickly. You can see how different emotions and histories can determine your response to pain.”
Now watching the segment on how, under some circumstances, some people seem to perceive time as moving more slowly. This happened to me the first time I rolled a car – I had absolutely no fear of death (but then, I was 25, and still likely under the misimpression that I was invulnerable), and I still recall, in minute detail, the exhilaration of rolling over – it was fascinating, it all happened in slow motion. I was punctured on each side of my spine by the crumpled roof, but felt no pain. I caught a ride back to town, got my other car, drove back and made arrangements for a tow truck to pick up the vehicle, then drove three hours to my parents’ house, before realizing, when my Mom pointed it out, that the back of my shirt was drenched in blood. Good times.
Dang, Arch. Do you think that you didn’t feel pain because you were in shock or has this always been the case — not feeling pain? You feel no pain?
Have you ever been kick in that “delicate” area between your legs? If so, did you moan like a woman in intense labor and have a near-death experience? 😉
Of course, when pricked by a pin, I hurt (although I knew a girl once who swallowed a thumbtack when she was six, and didn’t feel the prick til she was sixteen, but I digress –) – I attribute it to the adrenalin rush.
“Have you ever been kick(ed) in that ‘delicate’ area between your legs?” – if you mean the cajones, no, I’ve never allowed that to happen.
I don’t know, Mz V, if you currently hold a BA/BS or not – why do you not pursue a Masters and follow that with a Doctorate? You’re still a relatively young woman. Yes, it’s only pieces of paper, but it’s also credentials, and that would make your word more valuable in the eyes of those to whom such things matter. And face it, for the most part, they rule the world.
If it’s just a matter of money, hey, we could rob a bank, they’re insured by FDIC! I could plan it during one of my (according to Ruth) drunken stupors, what could possibly go wrong?
I mean, with your obvious intellect, your vast reservoir of knowledge, and your uncanny ability to research, if you could just repress your tendency toward snarkiness, you’d be unstoppable!
“If it’s just a matter of money, hey, we could rob a bank, they’re insured by FDIC! I could plan it during one of my (according to Ruth) drunken stupors, what could possibly go wrong?”
So Arch, did you say you got a “bump” on the head? 😛
…and in spite of your snarkiness and sarcasm, you have a good heart, metaphorically speaking. Nothing you don’t already know. Nevertheless, thank you for your kind words.
The best example of freewill that impresses me is self sacrifice for the benefit of others. When a person gives themselves to another who does not know them yet. Gives their time, their resources and even their lives.
When a person gives that part of themselves, even while the very people they are giving to critique, revile and dismiss them. Those very people who misunderstand and hate them, they seek to give themselves to. So that one day those people may not be strangers and understand.
That to me suggests freewill, especially in cases where the person is choosing to take on harm and abuse for the sake of others.
Because that choice goes against their very self preservation.
I plan to go camping this week, so I’ll be away for a few days.
Hope you all stay safe 🙂
I’ll leave with one last video for today, hopefully not the last day though 🙂
“That to me suggests freewill, especially in cases where the person is choosing to take on harm and abuse for the sake of others.
Because that choice goes against their very self preservation.”
Unless, of course, that person’s daddy happens to be king of the Universe, and the person knows that after one really bad day and a three-day nap, he’ll get to live forever in paradise.
So action for me, is not only setting boundaries but seeing to understand (educate myself) why things like this occur. Our “justice system” is as archaic and barbaric as our belief systems.
I have, in the past, had issues with empathy. I let it extend too far over into sympathy which leads to not setting appropriate boundaries and giving a bazillion second chances. But you already know that.
What about people who can’t “control” their urges? Like alcoholics or people who suffer from anorexia or workaholics or the overly obese? What comes into play? These individuals may know they’re damaging their body, yet they continue. Is this also about rewards?
Yes! I attended a support group meeting for family members/friends of alcoholics and the leader had this to say:
The belief doesn’t have to be true; they just have to believe it. For example, ‘alcohol makes me smarter, or more witty, or more likeable’, or ‘food makes me feel better’, or ‘I’m saving money buying this on sale’ – even if it’s something you’ll never use. People who are addicted had a chemical reaction in their brain the first time they did any one of those things that told them it would always be true. It’s the same chemical that is our connection to God, he said.
In my opinion if the word “belief” were replaced with “reward” the outcome would be the same.
“I have, in the past, had issues with empathy. I let it extend too far over into sympathy which leads to not setting appropriate boundaries and giving a bazillion second chances.”
Agreed. Sociopaths, psychopaths and narcissists target certain personality types — humanitarians — those who tend to be empathic/sympathetic towards the plight of others.
What Christianity did was to teach people that they should turn the other cheek and allow this behavior — forgive 70 x 7. IMO, that is treading in dangerous territory when you teach children this message. Do you know that after I experience this identity theft ( I mistakenly wrote 6 figures, but it was actually just over 7 figures) I was told that God had allowed this to happen; that I was the sacrificial lamb who was to “witness” to him and lead him to Christ. I kid you not.
Do you know that after I experience this identity theft ( I mistakenly wrote 6 figures, but it was actually just over 7 figures) I was told that God had allowed this to happen; that I was the sacrificial lamb who was to “witness” to him and lead him to Christ. I kid you not.
I have no doubt. I was taught similarly, that I was a martyr for the cause of Christ, and that by my chaste, respectful, submissive, behavior would win the day. To turn the other cheek and that a kind word turns away wrath.
So are we saying that if there’s any reward in a choice at all that nullifies freewill?
Or even if there is no reward at all?
Ruth, studies show more anterior sectors of the prefrontal cortex are distinctively recruited when altruistic choices prevail over selfish material interests. Also, another region of the brain, the ventral striatum was more active for making sacrifices than for pure monetary rewards. So a person might think that there is no reward involved but there is, even if a person goes on a hunger strike, protests and gets maced, or dies for another. http://www.pnas.org/content/103/42/15623.full
My question is — if all our motives, choices are reward based, even without our conscious awareness, is that really free will?
Finding Truth 
It would seem, Neuro – and I’m not agreeing nor disagreeing, merely asking – that you’re implying that absent a massive rewiring job, criminal rehabilitation is impossible?
Yes, it’s possible but not with everyone. The problem is, Arch, the criminal ‘justice’ system provides a massive reinforcement of that wiring (if it’s caused by wiring) when people go to prison. Violence experts state that prisons don’t rehabilitate, they make things worse and punishment does not prevent violence — again — it makes things worse.
(two minutes)
serve merely to keep the perpetrator out of society and away from potential victims
Yes. But that’s all it does.
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Watching the segment on TMS now, and as the late Walter Brennan used to say on The Guns Of Will Sonnet, “No brag, jest fact.”, I rarely feel pain. I also rarely get sick, except when the kids, and later the grandchildren, bring the flu home with them during the holiday vacations. So is that due to my frontal cortex blocking the pain signals? And couldn’t that prevent me from realizing when something is seriously wrong. like a marathon runner running on a sprained ankle, or (extreme example) a broken leg?
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Yes, well, this I knew.
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Arch, with regard to pain, you might want to read this link — it’s quite complex. But here’s an excerpt.
http://pain.about.com/od/whatischronicpain/a/feeling_pain.htm
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Now watching the segment on how, under some circumstances, some people seem to perceive time as moving more slowly. This happened to me the first time I rolled a car – I had absolutely no fear of death (but then, I was 25, and still likely under the misimpression that I was invulnerable), and I still recall, in minute detail, the exhilaration of rolling over – it was fascinating, it all happened in slow motion. I was punctured on each side of my spine by the crumpled roof, but felt no pain. I caught a ride back to town, got my other car, drove back and made arrangements for a tow truck to pick up the vehicle, then drove three hours to my parents’ house, before realizing, when my Mom pointed it out, that the back of my shirt was drenched in blood. Good times.
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Dang, Arch. Do you think that you didn’t feel pain because you were in shock or has this always been the case — not feeling pain? You feel no pain?
Have you ever been kick in that “delicate” area between your legs? If so, did you moan like a woman in intense labor and have a near-death experience? 😉
LikeLike
Of course, when pricked by a pin, I hurt (although I knew a girl once who swallowed a thumbtack when she was six, and didn’t feel the prick til she was sixteen, but I digress –) – I attribute it to the adrenalin rush.
“Have you ever been kick(ed) in that ‘delicate’ area between your legs?” – if you mean the cajones, no, I’ve never allowed that to happen.
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I probably should have used the term “hit” rather than “kicked”.
— http://youtu.be/G_7oHuWZOxo —
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Yeah, like I really need 4 minutes and 28 seconds of Man’s greatest nightmare, thanks —
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*wubbles*
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I don’t know, Mz V, if you currently hold a BA/BS or not – why do you not pursue a Masters and follow that with a Doctorate? You’re still a relatively young woman. Yes, it’s only pieces of paper, but it’s also credentials, and that would make your word more valuable in the eyes of those to whom such things matter. And face it, for the most part, they rule the world.
If it’s just a matter of money, hey, we could rob a bank, they’re insured by FDIC! I could plan it during one of my (according to Ruth) drunken stupors, what could possibly go wrong?
LikeLike
I mean, with your obvious intellect, your vast reservoir of knowledge, and your uncanny ability to research, if you could just repress your tendency toward snarkiness, you’d be unstoppable!
LikeLike
“If it’s just a matter of money, hey, we could rob a bank, they’re insured by FDIC! I could plan it during one of my (according to Ruth) drunken stupors, what could possibly go wrong?”
So Arch, did you say you got a “bump” on the head? 😛
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“if you could just repress your tendency toward snarkiness, you’d be unstoppable!”
I have a great teacher. Why would I want to repress the hours of training from the Master of snarkiness? 😉
Are you hitting the ba ba tonight?
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…and in spite of your snarkiness and sarcasm, you have a good heart, metaphorically speaking. Nothing you don’t already know. Nevertheless, thank you for your kind words.
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You still haven’t answered my question, why don’t you go for it?
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The best example of freewill that impresses me is self sacrifice for the benefit of others. When a person gives themselves to another who does not know them yet. Gives their time, their resources and even their lives.
When a person gives that part of themselves, even while the very people they are giving to critique, revile and dismiss them. Those very people who misunderstand and hate them, they seek to give themselves to. So that one day those people may not be strangers and understand.
That to me suggests freewill, especially in cases where the person is choosing to take on harm and abuse for the sake of others.
Because that choice goes against their very self preservation.
I plan to go camping this week, so I’ll be away for a few days.
Hope you all stay safe 🙂
I’ll leave with one last video for today, hopefully not the last day though 🙂
LikeLike
“That to me suggests freewill, especially in cases where the person is choosing to take on harm and abuse for the sake of others.
Because that choice goes against their very self preservation.”
Unless, of course, that person’s daddy happens to be king of the Universe, and the person knows that after one really bad day and a three-day nap, he’ll get to live forever in paradise.
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or that person is a masochist.
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So are we saying that if there’s any reward in a choice at all that nullifies freewill?
Or even if there is no reward at all?
LikeLike
So action for me, is not only setting boundaries but seeing to understand (educate myself) why things like this occur. Our “justice system” is as archaic and barbaric as our belief systems.
I have, in the past, had issues with empathy. I let it extend too far over into sympathy which leads to not setting appropriate boundaries and giving a bazillion second chances. But you already know that.
LikeLike
What about people who can’t “control” their urges? Like alcoholics or people who suffer from anorexia or workaholics or the overly obese? What comes into play? These individuals may know they’re damaging their body, yet they continue. Is this also about rewards?
Yes! I attended a support group meeting for family members/friends of alcoholics and the leader had this to say:
“Is there anything you’ve ever had an obsession about?” The other members of the group started spouting off things like food, shopping, men, etc. I was pretty quiet because I’m still trying to suss out this crowd. But my ears perked up when he said that part of the reason addiction is so hard to break is that they have some belief about the object of their obsession. Beliefs are what? A form of faith. What do we normally associate faith with? God.
The belief doesn’t have to be true; they just have to believe it. For example, ‘alcohol makes me smarter, or more witty, or more likeable’, or ‘food makes me feel better’, or ‘I’m saving money buying this on sale’ – even if it’s something you’ll never use. People who are addicted had a chemical reaction in their brain the first time they did any one of those things that told them it would always be true. It’s the same chemical that is our connection to God, he said.
In my opinion if the word “belief” were replaced with “reward” the outcome would be the same.
LikeLike
“I have, in the past, had issues with empathy. I let it extend too far over into sympathy which leads to not setting appropriate boundaries and giving a bazillion second chances.”
Agreed. Sociopaths, psychopaths and narcissists target certain personality types — humanitarians — those who tend to be empathic/sympathetic towards the plight of others.
What Christianity did was to teach people that they should turn the other cheek and allow this behavior — forgive 70 x 7. IMO, that is treading in dangerous territory when you teach children this message. Do you know that after I experience this identity theft ( I mistakenly wrote 6 figures, but it was actually just over 7 figures) I was told that God had allowed this to happen; that I was the sacrificial lamb who was to “witness” to him and lead him to Christ. I kid you not.
LikeLike
Do you know that after I experience this identity theft ( I mistakenly wrote 6 figures, but it was actually just over 7 figures) I was told that God had allowed this to happen; that I was the sacrificial lamb who was to “witness” to him and lead him to Christ. I kid you not.
I have no doubt. I was taught similarly, that I was a martyr for the cause of Christ, and that by my chaste, respectful, submissive, behavior would win the day. To turn the other cheek and that a kind word turns away wrath.
LikeLike
Ruth, studies show more anterior sectors of the prefrontal cortex are distinctively recruited when altruistic choices prevail over selfish material interests. Also, another region of the brain, the ventral striatum was more active for making sacrifices than for pure monetary rewards. So a person might think that there is no reward involved but there is, even if a person goes on a hunger strike, protests and gets maced, or dies for another. http://www.pnas.org/content/103/42/15623.full
My question is — if all our motives, choices are reward based, even without our conscious awareness, is that really free will?
LikeLike